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Maxtheknife
planet
07/12/05 04:09 PM
Geometry at Cydonia [link to this post]  

Hello all, and welcome to my first thread!

Since geometry is an ancient science, and I'm working w/ Cydonia, I decided to start the thread here. Hope that's ok!

After many months of intriguing discussion about Cydonia, the thread seemingly died after I posted what I now consider to be an inferior and inaccurate sketch of the the claims of Hoagland, et al.

Photoshop 7 has a neat little measuring tool that allows one to measure angles with an unbelievable degree of accuracy.

Many of the angles I'm about to present are accurate to within .05, while the overall accuracy, I would have to say is ~+/- .2 degrees.

Presenting this work may be problematic in this forum. While I will try to be considerate of folks w/ smaller monitors and slower computers, I have cropped and downsized the images as much as possible w/o losing the detail of the lines that I've drawn for presentation here at SDC. The lines I've drawn are only 1 pixel wide. I did this for the most accuracy. I'm not sure how these will look when actually posted. I may be able to get away w/ downsizing the pics even more without losing too much resolution. We'll see.....

So you all understand my presentation: I will use certain colors for certain rays. I will note the angle of the rays in that color. In other words, two blue rays might be noted by a 'blue' 33.3. A red and blue ray's angle might be noted with a 'blue'33, while the '.3' will be noted in red. Simple enough?

To begin w/ at least, to aid viewing here, and because I'm not sure how visable my geometry will be, I've enlarged and cropped the angles to be focused on so you can read them. Then I pulled back so you can see the whole pic, where the rays actually end up, etc. This means for every example I want to present here, there may have to be two posts. Ok? We'll see how it goes, though.

This is step 1.

In step one, I've recreated the apex and angles that Torun and Hoagland have claimed are present in the D&M Pyramid. These angles are: 85.3, 69.4, 85.3, 60, & 60. I used the upper and lower left sides of the pyramid to anchor the arms. After that, positioning the apex was not difficult at all.

Notice the axis of symmetry, as RCH claims, passes directly through the eyes of the FOM. The left arm does not pass through the center of the City, which they have never claimed as far as I can tell. Where it does end up, on the inside left corner of the City Square, will be extremely interesting in posts to come.....

It's a cryin' shame the Tholus isn't in the image! But let's press on w/ what we do have!

PS: I still do not have a definitive answer as to how much orthorectification will skew the work I've done. I'm trusting what Yevaud and others have taught me which is.... it shouldn't skew things too much.


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/12/05 04:10 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

And here is the larger context image.


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yurkin
asteroid
07/12/05 05:58 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Presenting this work may be problematic in this forum.

Now there’s an understatement.


I hate going to parties, because people know stuff and they like to talk about it.
Hi, I don’t know anything about that, but can still stand in this circle and drink? - brian regan

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crazyeddie
galaxy
07/12/05 06:32 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I thinkk your thread belongs in the Phenomena forum.

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vogon13
solar system
07/12/05 07:02 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Why don't the yellow lines align with the ridges better?

Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines.

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petepan
planet
07/12/05 07:32 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Max, not to be too picky, but the apex point you have chosen dosen't seem to correspond to the visual apex that we see in the pic, also, the line pointing to 12 o'clock seems off from the ridge line too and the line at approx 4-5 o'clock doesn't appear to line up well either?

I thought they were supposed to line up?

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/12/05 10:04 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: petepan][link to this post]  

Petepan.... lolol, your handle makes me think back to my performance days... "I won't grow up, I don't wanna go to school, just to learn to be a parent, and recite a silly rule! If growin' up means it should be, beneath my dignity to climb a tree, I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow u-up. Not me!"

It's generally accepted that the right side of the D&M has been essentially obliterated. It's been proposed that what we are actually seeing is internal geometry. If your're patient, maybe we'll get to that....

Like I said, I used the upper and lower left arms which appear to be in rather good condition. In fact I also said I had to position the D&M apex. A specific point as precise as say, the Teardrop, is not apparent. I had a limited space in which to place the pentagon. It fits.... rather well.

What's really important here anyway are specific points. The D&M's apex, points in the city, the Teardrop, the human eyeball, the Platform the D&M sits upon, etc..

We've been given a model, let's test it!

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vogon13
solar system
07/12/05 10:10 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Pentagon?

IIRC, pentagon has five 72 degree angles. This figure has something different.

Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines.

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silylene
planet
07/12/05 10:23 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

*sigh, here we go again*

The subject of mythical pyramids at Cydonia and bizarre angles is neither Space Science nor Astronomy. This thread is in the wrong forum.

Moderators, please move this thread to "Phenomena".

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geneftw
comet
07/13/05 01:42 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: vogon13][link to this post]  

"In geometry, a pentagon is any five-sided polygon. However, the term is commonly used to mean a regular pentagon, where all sides are equal and all angles are equal (to 108°)."
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Pentagon

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/13/05 08:27 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: geneftw][link to this post]  

Hey Gene! Great to see you here

Does anyone here know the symbolic relevance and importance of the proposed pentagon?

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/13/05 08:46 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Aw shux, I had my hour in Space Science and Astronomy..... sure wish someone had given me a good reason why this thread was moved to phenomena.

Oh well, nothing to make a stink over....

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najaBModerator
solar system
07/13/05 09:10 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

>...sure wish someone had given me a good reason why this thread was moved...

Because it isn't space science nor is it astronomy.

This space for rent....

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/13/05 09:15 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: najaB][link to this post]  

Oic.... is that a fact, or just Naj's opinion?

Whatever.... don't feel like quibbling w/ ya, Naj!

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vogon13
solar system
07/13/05 09:38 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Why are 2 of the lines off so far ? Pretty obvious 2 of the ridges (I'll call north and southeast)are not aligned with the lines at all. Are we assuming a ridge at one time existed for the line that does not lineup with anything at all? (I call that the east one)



Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines.

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/13/05 10:44 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: vogon13][link to this post]  

Yes, Vogon. Like I said, it's been proposed that the D&M's eastern side has been obliterated.

How was it obliterated, one may ask?

Check out this thread for some interesting ideas....
http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=sciastro&Number=260072&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

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najaBModerator
solar system
07/13/05 10:55 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

It's the opinion of at least one other mod, 'cause I didn't move the thread.

This space for rent....

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/13/05 11:13 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: vogon13][link to this post]  

Hi again, Vogon

Here is something to help you visualize....

Section one is in decent shape, although as you will see in work to come, the lower visable butress is in fact false. The more one moves away from the left, or western, side of the D&M, the worse it gets.

Section two is pretty much gone. All that remains is what has been interpreted as a former entrance or perhaps an exit wound from a massive internal explosion of some sort.

Also, keep in mind that it's been proposed that Cydonia once sat on the shorline of an ancient Martian sea or ocean. That water was supposedly somewhere south of the D&M.


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/13/05 11:31 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

One may also want to check out this thread. It might be of interest for some of you to see how our space program seems to literally revolve around some of the numbers I'm about to show.

http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=phenomena&Number=248286&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

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vogon13
solar system
07/13/05 11:38 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

1 entirely missing, and 2 off so far as to be very puzzling indeed.

Why not line up the 2 that are off so far and see what you can find?

Almost as though you are forcing data to fit foregone conclusion, one of those "don't confuse me with the facts I've already made up my mind" things.

Curious.



Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines.

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/13/05 01:24 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: vogon13][link to this post]  

Vogon: Why not line up the 2 that are off so far and see what you can find?

I have, Vogon! Patience....


Vogon: Almost as though you are forcing data to fit foregone conclusion

Nah, I'm not forcing anything. We were given a geometric model by RCH, Torun, et al, and I'm testing it on available data to see if what these guys claim is true. We're trying to improve upon measurments taken off of old '76 orthorectified Viking data. Measurments that RCH claimed had a margin of error +/- 3 degrees. Getting things to within .5 is difficult, I want better than .5!

Since it's been said that the D&M pyramid is the "Rosetta Stone" of Cydonia. I thought that was the best place to start.

Here is what Torun gave us. What's interesting is that when one puts the Photoshop measuring tool on the given pentagon, the angles are off. It's just a sketch. Trying to take this specific pentagon and make it fit the data was forcing the issue.

What is good here, are the specific data given.

Keep in mind there are more relevant angles to consider here than just the ones given in this simple diagram. Angles like 19.5, 33.3, 39, 66.6, etc....

edit: Here is a link to Torun...
http://users.starpower.net/etorun/pyramid/geometry.html



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Maxtheknife
planet
07/13/05 03:24 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

So anyway, moving right along.... It's been said that the angle 69.4, the back angle of the D&M, is present when one draws a line from the apex of the D&M, to the exact center of the City Square and then through the Teardrop feature on the FOM.

For the time being, I will leave the yellow rays visable so you know where the original axes of the D&M are.

Draw your attention to the red lines and check it out!


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/13/05 03:26 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

And the full context image....

Neat, eh?


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/14/05 06:49 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Then it dawned on me..... Well actually, it almost slapped me in the face! The angle .865, that is!

When I call the ball at .865, one should know that the ray is long enough to allow a minimal amount of movement between, say, .1 & .2. The longer the ray, the more precise one can get.

When I say these angles are .865, I'm saying that the measurment tool is telling me the angle is somewhere between .8 and .9. Actually it's quite obvious that it's greater than .85 and less than .90.

Since the message is supposed to be e/pi, I think going out on a limb with an extra two decimal places is a pretty safe bet.

Here's one RCH hasn't shown ya! .865,,,, twice!


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/14/05 06:52 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

And of course, for your viewing pleasure..... the bigger picture.


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/14/05 09:02 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Hey, sorry.... I forgot to give you all a close up of the FOM which clearly shows the D&M's axis of symmetry running tangent to the Teardrop and right between the eyes. This close-up also shows the sight line from the center of the City Square going directly through the Teardrop.


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crazyeddie
galaxy
07/15/05 02:40 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

It's amazing to think that anyone still believes there's anything artificial about these natural landforms....

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/15/05 07:14 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: crazyeddie][link to this post]  

Hi Crazyeddie

Yeah, well, it amazes us that you guys eat everything NASA tells you, hook, line & sinker, no questions asked.

Speaking of not taking people's word for things.....

Are you out there, Telfrow? Ever bother to put the photoshop measuring tool on this pic?

It's taken from this page: http://www.enterprisemission.com/sheep.htm


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telfrow
star
07/15/05 08:31 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Are you out there, Telfrow?

Yes.

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, how amazingly unlikely is your birth;
and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space… 'cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

- Monty Python, “The Galaxy Song”

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/17/05 03:49 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

So I guess you didn't put the measuring tool on his photo, Telfrow?

The measured angle is.... hmmm,,,, 18.7! That's odd....

If I use RCH's proposed apex for the ruined tetrahedron, 18.7 points directly through the middle of the human eyeball....

The resulting three angles, (working from RCH's two givens: 19.5 and 18.7 plus the actual axis of symmetry of the D&M) are, 17.9, 18.7, 19.5.

They look like this.....


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/17/05 03:51 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Wow.... How's this for coincidence, Zen?!

.865! Twice more!


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vogon13
solar system
07/17/05 09:50 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Where you wind up after you screw up the lines and the pentagon is irrelevant. You are forcing data to fit foregone conclusion. It doesn't matter how neat you think your findings are, once you commit the intellectual dishonesty of knowingly putting the lines in the wrong place, you have lost the argument.

Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines.

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/18/05 07:51 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: vogon13][link to this post]  

Hi Vogon

What exactly did I 'screw' up? What makes you think I'm putting the lines in the 'wrong' place?

Intellectual dishonesty? I hope Telfrow is checking my work so this doesn't happen!

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vogon13
solar system
07/18/05 10:20 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Broken record imitation:

Lines don't line up with ridges {click}

Lines don't line up with ridges {click}

Lines don't line up with ridges {click}

Lines don't line up with ridges {click}



Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines.

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thermionic
rock
07/18/05 05:37 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: vogon13][link to this post]  

Vogon, you are repeating yourself. Again. We know the lines are in the right places, because RCH told us what to expect. If the lines were in different places, the answer would be wrong. So the lines are correctly located. Don't you know how to do math? They taught me in school to look in the back of the book for the answer, and then work the problem until I came out with that value. Simple mathematics!

Use the word "quantum" in every post for credibility!

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vogon13
solar system
07/18/05 05:51 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: thermionic][link to this post]  

Goodness!

I guess you told me!





Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines.

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/18/05 08:58 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: thermionic][link to this post]  

Hey, Therm

If the data fits, right?

Check this out. Ever wonder about this anomalous thing? It sits west of the FOM. Not much has ever been said about it. I've always called it the 'Pinwheel'. I guess 'Cinnabon' would do, though

It aint a crater, whatever it is!

Here's what I'm talkin' about.


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/18/05 09:05 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Well, once I thought I had the apex of that ruined tetrahedron, I started to play around w/ it.

I simply moved away from it using the relevant numbers. 19.5 was taken. What's next? 22.5....not much. 30 degrees? Not much again

So.....Ok, 33.3.

Now, that's kinda cool. Tangent to my 'Pinwheel'!

Note: I removed the D&M's yellow axis of symmetry ray, to give you a better look at the relevant angle.


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/18/05 09:09 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Yeppers.... you guessed it......

.865 two more times!

In case you've lost count, that's .865, 6x.

Coincidence? Hardly.


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/18/05 09:20 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Here's the full view


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thermionic
rock
07/19/05 12:12 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  


Either a nipple or a mosquito bite. Ask BigBrain, he'll know for sure!

Use the word "quantum" in every post for credibility!

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/19/05 07:53 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: thermionic][link to this post]  

Hello again, Therm!

I'd be more interested to hear what you think the 'pinwheel' might be. After all, the answers are not in the back of the book, are they?

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Dragon04
rock
07/19/05 01:13 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I looked and looked at these photos. And I noticed a couple of very interesting things that have nothing to do with ET.

First, let me say that I am not a geologist. What I'm proposing is from observation and comparison only.

I tried to find better/more examples, but the ones from this link will illustrate my point :

http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA06660.jpg

These are topo images taken from space of 3 French Polynesian islands.

In particular, I'd like you to pay attention to the middle image and the island at the top of the image. Remeniscent of the "face", wouldn't you say?

Next, please note the middle and lower islands. In particular, examine the structure of the islands both above and belowe the water line.

Now. Refer back to the image on the post I am replying to.

First, I'd like to point out the similarities in structure of both the terrestrial and Martian features. For lack of a better term, look specifically at the "pillows" that the structures sit on.

Another interesting feature I noticed in your posted image is what appear to be the remains of perhaps lava flows in the "islands region".

Lastly, I noticed what appear to be increasingly large concentric rings vs elevation drop.

All this leads me to believe that at one time, this was an archipelago in an ancient Martian sea.

As far as the geometry goes, I could probably find a terrestrial example to provide complete with lines and angles, but rebuttal isn't my intention here.

I'm just amazed that I'm looking at what might have been an island chain a billion or so years ago. Rather than offering proof of whether ET exists or no, it gives me hope that the Earth isn't such an uncommon place after all.

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/19/05 02:54 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Dragon04][link to this post]  

Hi Dragon, welcome

Dragon: As far as the geometry goes, I could probably find a terrestrial example to provide complete with lines and angles, but rebuttal isn't my intention here.

Yeah, skeptics have been saying that for like 30 years now.... nobody can do it. Except of course if they use megalithic sites.

There are several great terrestrial comparasons to the FOM. The majority of which are artificial.... earth works...

Check these out....


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/19/05 02:54 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

And a side view....


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/19/05 02:58 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Or how about this ancient Earth work?

All three are far more comprable to the FOM, don't you think?

Btw, Dragon, like I said earlier, it's been proposed that Cydonia did once sit on the shoreline of an ancient Martian sea or ocean. That shoreline was to the south of the D&M. I'll see if I can find some images w/ that shorline outlined for you later.

Edit: actually only two examples. The first from two different perspctives.

Edited by Maxtheknife (07/19/05 03:58 PM)


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Dragon04
comet
07/19/05 06:29 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Very interesting pictures Max

But I must ask a question. Let's use the Great Pyramids as an example. From space, one could image them, and determine by their near geometric perfectness in shape and alignment that more likely than not, they are constructed rather than naturally occurring structures.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but if not, explain to me why would an intelligent species build a complex that "sort of" fit some kind of geometrical symmetry.

And symmetry is the key here. It's prevalent in ancient buildings here on earth. I find it a bit difficult that a society would build a monument (or maybe I should say complex) that was asymmetrical if they were building a lasting monument to their culture or some deity.

At least here on Earth, intelligent builder species are obsessed with symmetry. Ancient sites here on Earth mark solstices. Or point towards true north at a specific time in the procession of the equinoxes.

Is there some software out there that could astronomically explain the irregularity of your 5 sided layout?

I will agree that speculation (however remote) on the Cydonia region is open to debate until men and women go there and do real science to prove or disprove the origin of the area.

Finally, I would ask you what percent chance you personally think there is of the Cydonia region being simply a naturally occurring feature of the planet?

Myself, I would put that chance at about 99.5%. And that's an arbitrary guess.

If I would be fortunate enough to still be alive when we go to Mars and investigate that region, I would be awestruck if there was solid evidence that Cydonia was built by the hands of thinking beings.

Unfortunately, the lack of overall symmetry affirms my skepticism.

You've obviously spent considerable time and effort putting forth your point. But step into the shoes of a mathmetician, geometer, and archaeologist for a moment.

Humans like proof. We like tidy little laws that explain things. We like pictures of perfectly cut sandstone blocks. We like symmetry. We make the assumption that other intelligent species would too.

But thanks for the thought provoking posts.

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/20/05 11:40 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Dragon04][link to this post]  

Hi Dragon, I like your style

You write: Maybe I missed it somewhere, but if not, explain to me why would an intelligent species build a complex that "sort of" fit some kind of geometrical symmetry.

Sort of? I don't understand 'sort of'. This is specific and accurate, isn't it? Furthermore, the geometry isn't shooting for symmetry as much as it seems to be pointing to some sort of relevant physical model for the way things work in the universe.

Unfortunately, these are ruins. Age estimates range from 25k y.o. to 500k y.o. to 65 million y.o.! The Great Sphinx at Giza had to be exhumed didn't it? Did you know that e/pi is displayed at Giza too?

Dragon: And symmetry is the key here.

Symmetry is not the key. The message e/pi is the key. Or more specifically, there is something important about a tetrahedron circumscribed within a rotating sphere.

Fortunately, as I will show in posts to come, symmetry abounds.... it just isn't obvious cuz things are buried and ruined. Luckily, there's enough intact that we can begin to reconstruct what was once there.

Dragon: At least here on Earth, intelligent builder species are obsessed with symmetry. Ancient sites here on Earth mark solstices. Or point towards true north at a specific time in the procession of the equinoxes.

RCH has shown, though use of sophisticated software, that at one time, one could stand at the exact center of the City Square and watch the Sun and the Earth rise over the FOM during the Martian Solstice. The last time this alignment occured was approximately 500k years ago.


You also ask: Is there some software out there that could astronomically explain the irregularity of your 5 sided layout?

I don't think I understand the question. The proposed pentagon is symmetrical and based on a 360 degree system, isn't it? What would an astronomy program have to do with it?

You then write: I would ask you what percent chance you personally think there is of the Cydonia region being simply a naturally occurring feature of the planet?

The chances that the features present at Cydonia are natural is nill, or next to zero!

There are a couple of threads that I want you to check out, Dragon....
1. http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=seti&Number=153569&page=6&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
2. http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=seti&Number=222611&page=6&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
3. http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=seti&Number=227212&page=5&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
4. http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=seti&Number=232679&page=5&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
5. http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=seti&Number=234012&page=4&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
6. http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=seti&Number=246513&page=4&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=

There are also a couple of specific posts I'd like you to read.....
1. (For some important history on the Cydonia investigation) http://uplink.space.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=phenomena&Number=204569&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&vc=1

2. (For a detailed geological analysis, undisputed even by SDC's resident geologist) http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=seti&Number=232679&page=5&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=24&vc=1

Just as an example of 33.3 appearing at a megalithic site on Earth, here is Teotihuacan as it relates to North.


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/20/05 11:47 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I wrote: Unfortunately, these are ruins. Age estimates range from 25k y.o. to 500k y.o. to 65 million y.o.! The Great Sphinx at Giza had to be exhumed didn't it? Did you know that e/pi is displayed at Giza too?

Further to this point, keep in mind the following as it illustrates how bound we are to certain ideas of history.

1. The Sphinx shows clear signs of water erosion.
2. The last time the Sphinx faced the constellation Leo as it rose up over the eastern horizon was ~ 10,500 years ago.
3. The three great pyramids at Giza were precisely aligned w/ Orion's belt ~ 10,500 years ago.
4. The last time water is thought to have been present on the Giza plateau was..... yep, 10,500 years ago.

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Dragon04
comet
07/20/05 02:18 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

"3. The three great pyramids at Giza were precisely aligned w/ Orion's belt ~ 10,500 years ago"

Yes. And there's software out there that charted the night sky as seen from Giza 10,500 years ago.

What my admittedly horribly worded question was asking is if such software exists that has been or could be applied to the night sky over Cydonia that would explain the irregular pentagon as opposed to a regular one.

I was trying to get at whether the placement of the "structures" might have been tied to a constellation's stars' positions at a given time in Mars' history.

Anyways. I've read some of those links and will continue to read them.

But I still believe they are naturally occurring features

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ZenOnMars
asteroid
07/20/05 03:33 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Dragon04][link to this post]  

Hi, guys,

Dragon04, your Polynesian islands are interesting for sure. However, it does not look like a human face. Secondly, it is not surrounded with landforms that resemble terrestrial megalithic monuments. (If it did, Max could lay out lines and measure the angles to verify the same repetitive e/pi ratio that characterizes the Cydonia complex).

Dragon04, you further said, "But I must ask a question. Let's use the Great Pyramids as an example. From space, one could image them, and determine by their near geometric perfectness in shape and alignment that more likely than not, they are constructed rather than naturally occurring structures."

Well, first, mountains can be near perfectly pyramidal. The pyramidal form, in and of itself, is no guarantee of artificiality. Second, the Giza pyramids are not symmetrically aligned, either, they are askew, as are the 3 "belt" stars of Orion. Third, what will the Giza pyramids look like in, say a million years from now?

Perhaps like this? This is the pryramid of Amenhemet the 1st: (or what's left of it!)


"curiously un-curious"


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ZenOnMars
asteroid
07/20/05 04:21 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Dragon04][link to this post]  

Dragon04, "You've obviously spent considerable time and effort putting forth your point. But step into the shoes of a mathmetician, geometer, and archaeologist for a moment.
Humans like proof. We like tidy little laws that explain things. We like pictures of perfectly cut sandstone blocks. We like symmetry. We make the assumption that other intelligent species would too."


Really? Why don't "mainstream" archeologists care to acknowledge this, off the coast of Japan? Could it be that the only possible timeline, judging by the number of feet below the ocean, upsets their little apple cart?


"curiously un-curious"


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/20/05 05:36 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ZenOnMars][link to this post]  

Zen! Wonderful to see ya, brother! Welcome! I've been keeping a pot of water warm w/ some Darjeeling tea at the ready for you.

I wasn't going to show this until later, but since Dragon is yearning to see something that's really symmetrical, I'll jump ahead and give him this juicy nugget of symmetry.....

A perfect 69.4, 55.3, 55.3 triangle, split in half to make two 34.7, 55.3, 90.0 triangles.

Check out how the axis of symmetry runs tangent to those two pyramids in the center.....

Remember what the other angles in the D&M are? Yep, 55.3, 69.4 are in there!

For those of you who are really astute, you will notice a discrepency between my measurments of these specific mounds and the measurments that RCH, Torun, Crater & McDaniel did. They all said it was a perfect 60, 60, 60 triangle. That simply doesn't work.



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stevehw33
cluster
07/21/05 05:01 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

All wrong. It does rain at Giza, most years. Just not a lot.
The pyramids were not aligned to Leo, but to the north star at the time, Thuban. The Great Pyramid was aligned to Sirius and Alnitak, the base star in the Belt.
The Sphinx did not exist 10,500 years ago, and saying it aligned to Leo then, is irrelevant.

Typical cluster of unsubstantiated nonsense.

"The horse cannot sing."

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ZenOnMars
asteroid
07/21/05 06:20 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: stevehw33][link to this post]  

Steeeeeeve!!!!

Thuban, huh? Links, please?

Lolol........"The horse cannot sing." But he sure can fertilize!!!

To quote Glenda, Good Witch of the East:

"Rubbish, you have no power here! Now go away, before someone drops a house on you, too!"


"curiously un-curious"

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telfrow
star
07/21/05 06:32 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ZenOnMars][link to this post]  

Steve can reply for himself, but here are a couple of links in the meantime...

Thuban, also known as Alpha Draconis (á Dra), is a star (or star system) in the constellation of Draco. Due to the precession of Earth's rotational axis, it was the naked-eye star closest to the north pole from some time prior to 3000 B.C. until 1900 B.C., when it was superseded by Kochab. It was closest to the pole in 2700 B.C.: a mere 10 seconds of arc away (1/180th the width of the full Moon). Thuban is just barely fourth magnitude, so it cannot be seen from light-polluted areas. Even though Thuban is the alpha star in Draco, at apparent magnitude 3.65 it is over a magnitude fainter than the brightest star in the constellation, Etamin (ã Dra), whose apparent magnitude is 2.23.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuban

This star was the pole star at about 2700 BC. The fact that Thuban was the Pole Star at just the time the Egyptians were building pyramids hasn't escaped the archaeologists. Several structures appear to have been set up to align with Thuban during this time.

http://www2.hmc.edu/www/Thuban_history.html


So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, how amazingly unlikely is your birth;
and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space… 'cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

- Monty Python, “The Galaxy Song”

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a_lost_packet_
solar system
07/21/05 06:45 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ZenOnMars][link to this post]  

So, doesn't this kind of throw a cold bucket of water on RCH et al?

Study throws cold water on theories about warmer, wetter Red Planet

A new study of gas in meteorites suggests Mars was bitterly cold for pretty much all of the past 4 billion years, putting the freeze on hopes that the Red Planet had any extended wet periods during which life could have flourished.

Several rocks that were once near the surface of Mars, and have in the past few million years been kicked up by impacts that sent them to Earth, have been freezing cold for most of the past 4 billion years, the study concludes.

While the findings don't rule out the possibility of life on Mars, they indicate that biology's best shot would have come in the first 500 million years of the Red Planet's 4.5-billion-year existence....




So, unless your martians were a very advanced race of fruit flies that bred like bunnies and gained intelligence and a set of hands within 500 million years or so........

Comments?

a_lost_packet_

cluster++

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/21/05 10:07 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ZenOnMars][link to this post]  

"Who let the dogs out?! woof, woof, woof, woof, woof!"

Heheh, I knew they wouldn't be able to resist, Zen

Hi Packet, the line reads, A new study of gases in meteorites suggests one thing. Cydonia insists otherwise.

I think the article is 'cold water on RCH' in the sense that it's more "mainstream" media nonsense that's mererly delaying the inevitable.

Anyhoo, back to the geometry!

So now we've seen what's at 19.5 & 33.3 degrees away from the ruined pyramid.... What's next?

Hey! What's this at 52 degrees?


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/21/05 10:11 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Is this the axis of symmetry for the D&M Platform?

Sure looks like it to me.....

Check out the ray in relation to the Fort. That's some impressive cold wind blowin' 'round up there!


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a_lost_packet_
solar system
07/21/05 10:16 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Maxtheknife - Heheh, I knew they wouldn't be able to resist, Zen

Dunno what you're talking about. I haven't been reading this thread one bit. However, I thought you might be interested in what the article suggests. So, I followed the stench to this thread so I could supply you guys with the info thinking you'd find it interesting. I should have known better.

Maxtheknife -.. Anyhoo, back to the geometry! ...

Of course. Ignore whatever doesn't fit within your mythology. You don't think it's worth discussing even though it is directly concerned with critical information relating to your mythology? Oh well... it figures.

It's obvious that you guys are so far into this particular delusion that you are constructing your own reasons for believing it. We had nine threads worth of discussion and all it proved is that when all of your evidence was proven to be false or pure supposition, the only place RCH believers had to go in order for suppport.. was their imagination or, worse yet, RCH's.

Enjoy yourselves. The world is much bigger than the small sandbox you're playing in.


a_lost_packet_

cluster++

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/22/05 11:54 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: a_lost_packet_][link to this post]  

Sorry, Packet, but I'm not ignoring anything. You just can't read critically for some reason.

Last paragraph of the article: One of the rocks in the study was the infamous ALH84001, which contains etchings that some scientists have interpreted as being created by microscopic life forms. Shuster said the rock could not have been above freezing for more than a million years during the past 3.5 billion years.

So, when did the warmer million years occur? I'll bet during the same time Cydonia was built.

You're the one ignoring data. This isn't mythology, it's reality. These are images taken from our darling space agency NASA, remember? An agency that has failed to answer, let alone investigate, the profound implications that the Cydonia artifacts present.

You're right about one thing, though. The world is a whole lot bigger than the sandbox NASA would have us continue to play in.

If you really think the artificial argument was proven wrong after those nine threads, you're the one deluding yourself. Like a little school boy, all you have is denial.... If we're playing in a sandbox, you're in the catbox, and NASA is kicking litter all over you.



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ZenOnMars
asteroid
07/22/05 01:15 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: a_lost_packet_][link to this post]  

Hail, Hail, The gangs all here!

"The world is much bigger than the small sandbox you're playing in." Brother, you can say that again!
http://www.aetherometry.com/

"So, I followed the stench to this thread"

(Pssst!! I think that's steve's soul !)

"curiously un-curious"

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a_lost_packet_
solar system
07/22/05 04:13 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Maxtheknife - Sorry, Packet, but I'm not ignoring anything. You just can't read critically for some reason.

Really?

Maxtheknife - So, when did the warmer million years occur? I'll bet during the same time Cydonia was built.

?

...While the findings don't rule out the possibility of life on Mars, they indicate that biology's best shot would have come in the first 500 million years of the Red Planet's 4.5-billion-year existence...Study throws cold water on theories about warmer, wetter Red Planet

So, you believe that life could have developed on Mars, evolved intelligence, evolved a complex social structure, evolved a complex understanding of the Universe which far surpasses our own and then built the stuff at Cydonia.. within 500 million years from the time of Mars turbulent birth?

Do you have anything to say in regards to the article that makes sense?


a_lost_packet_

cluster++

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ZenOnMars
asteroid
07/22/05 04:49 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: a_lost_packet_][link to this post]  

From your link: "Shuster and Weiss studied previously published data on the amount of argon gas in seven meteorites that are known to have arrived from Mars after millions of years in space.

Argon decays at a known rate that varies with temperature. The amount of argon in a rock can be used to infer the maximum temperature the rock has experienced. Only a tiny amount of argon that would have existed in the rocks initially has leaked away.

"Any way we look at it, these rocks have been very cold for a very long time," Shuster said."


Yes. "millions of years in space"

lost, you asked, " So, you believe that life could have developed on Mars, evolved intelligence, evolved a complex social structure, evolved a complex understanding of the Universe which far surpasses our own and then built the stuff at Cydonia.. within 500 million years from the time of Mars turbulent birth?

What I believe is that intelligent life arose on Mars, or the Planet V that Mars revolved around, or here on Earth only to spread around this solar system, or that life was "imported" here, perhaps genetically engineered here, in our local neighborhood.

The adaptability of a far-advanced-species (even a far-advanced human species, lost to our forgotten pre-history), would ensure no problems with living on worlds with hostile environments. Living in bio-domes, or giant stone archologies, or even undergound, would be enhanced by a far superior technology, "indistinguishable from magic".

Look how quickly a complex social structure rose up in Sumeria (Iraq)!




"curiously un-curious"

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crazyeddie
galaxy
07/22/05 04:59 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ZenOnMars][link to this post]  

What I believe is that intelligent life arose on Mars, or the Planet V that Mars revolved around, or here on Earth only to spread around this solar system, or that life was "imported" here, perhaps genetically engineered here, in our local neighborhood.

The mods were quite correct to move this thread from Space Science and Astronomy to the fun-loving, whacky Phenomena forum, where pseudoscience rules!

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/22/05 08:41 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: a_lost_packet_][link to this post]  

Packet: So, you believe that life could have developed on Mars, evolved....

Yes, Packet.... obviously, I do.... or some variation thereof which somehow allows for intelligent beings on Mars sometime in the past. I've been saying that for about 6 months now.....

Packet: Do you have anything to say in regards to the article that makes sense?

I just took some time to comment on the article. Do you have anything to say about my work so far? This is my geometry thread, after all.


Now for more 'coincidental' geometry.

Ever since I've been studying Cydonia, (I've mentioned this in one of the other threads) I've thought there were two faces at Cydonia. The Second, or FOM2 as I call it, is located on the western most edge of the city.

What I'm not sure I mentioned is that since this new mosaic came out, I have thought there is good potential for a third FOM. That FOM is located just south and west of the D&M. I call it FOM3. Unfortunately, it's cut off, but it's still an amazing image, imo.

Here are the features I'm taling about.


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a_lost_packet_
solar system
07/23/05 12:21 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Maxtheknife - I just took some time to comment on the article. Do you have anything to say about my work so far? This is my geometry thread, after all.

Uh.. yeah. You really, really, really like Photoshop right?

a_lost_packet_

cluster++

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petepan
planet
07/23/05 06:01 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Max, could we step back a little to an earlier post.

It's been said that the angle 69.4, the back angle of the D&M

'the back angle of the D&M'

I'm not to familar with this, if you could elaborate a bit for me...

exact center of the City Square

how have you determined the 'exact centre' of this area?

...then through the Teardrop feature on the FOM.

i have seen this 'Teardrop' feature mentioned before, could you explain it a bit for me?


Why is this particular feature (Teardrop) more important than any other particular region?

Why should we ignore the original yellow lines and
re-adjust to the red ones?

Shouldn't the yellow one just point where your new red ones are?

If you rotate the yellow line to point to the new postion, dosen't that throw out the other lines pointing to the other objects?

Im trying to stay open minded here.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/23/05 09:57 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: petepan][link to this post]  

Hi Pete,

Absolutely we can step back a bit....

Pete: 'the back angle of the D&M'
I'm not to familar with this, if you could elaborate a bit for me...


I don't know what to elaborate on, really. 69.4 is exactly that, the 'back' angle of the pentagon proposed by Torun.

Maybe I should've posted this as step one. This is actually how I got started.

I began w/ a transparent background. Picked one square on the grid as a starting point, then built the shape from that point.

This is how it looks, only w/ a white background. The background one can build on is actually a checkered grid.

I should also take the time to note that perfection is seemingly just out of grasp. No matter how many times I construct and measure this pentagon, there's always one ray that is off by ~.05 - .10. I can, however, make the measurements fall within the drawn line. Let's just say it's very accurate


I can then take that shape and overlay it on the mosaic. After some scaling ---in equal percentages for height and width, of course--- and rotation, one gets what I posted in the very first image in the thread.

This is where 69.4 comes from. You will see in posts to come how all of these angles, 69.4, 85.3, 60, and the other, soon to be shown, internal floor angles, are reflected, literally, all over the place.


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/23/05 11:57 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: petepan][link to this post]  

Pete: how have you determined the 'exact centre' of this area?

That part was easy. I had that small feature, the teardrop (which I'll get to in a moment), and I now had the D&M apex roughly positioned. The city square area itself is rather small. Not a lot of room to 'play' around in. Remember, the angle from the D&M apex to the inside corners of the square? Only .865*2 degrees. The point I've marked is where many measurments come together.

If you are asking me to physically measure what's seen at the city square, and justify my marked point, I'd say that's kind of tough. It's small and ruined making the margin of error higher than what I'm after here.

But....

If I had to guess, judging from what I see, I'd say this would be a fair reconstruction of why the city 'center' is where it is.

Upon close observation, one notices two walls coming together. Notice the shadows.... I traced them. The angle I get is 85.3. Cool. I also mark where I think the apexes of those two tetraheral objects may have been. That diagonal shelf is rather interesting too. There appears to be some kind of elevation change there. The shelf appears 'broken' too.

Watch where and how these lines play with eachother. Apex to tangent, apex to tangent.... neat, huh? Notice too, if the marked center was any further north, the FOM would be visually blocked by that pyramid.



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Maxtheknife
planet
07/23/05 12:34 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: petepan][link to this post]  

Pete: i have seen this 'Teardrop' feature mentioned before, could you explain it a bit for me?

http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/face-lift-tear.jpg

What do you see there, Pete?

I see this.... Maybe a third eye? That would be meaningful, wouldn't it? How about a pool or a fountain? It seems to have a 'bowl' at the peak. That would be cool, a pool, shaped like another eye right where a tear would fall? hemmm

What ever it is, it stands out in stark contrast to it's immediate surroundings to be sure.



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Maxtheknife
planet
07/23/05 12:53 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: petepan][link to this post]  

Pete: Why should we ignore the original yellow lines and
re-adjust to the red ones?


Because the geometry at cydonia dances. It flows. It does not stop spinning.

Maybe I should not have said ignore.... more like put out of focus for a moment, but keep it in mind.

Shouldn't the yellow one just point where your new red ones are?

No. The yellow lines are anchored. I will be filling in the base angles later. You'll see.

Pete, I appreciate your open mindedness.

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/23/05 01:18 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Let's see now, where was I?

Ah, yes....Let's start playing w/ the platform!

33.3 degrees clockwise.... I've left in the yellow axis of symmetry line for you, Pete.... watch what happens. Just remember it's 33.3 from green to green.


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/23/05 01:29 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Wowow, ya see that? It went back to the human eyeball! Not only that, but it is the exact same ray that was used to measure the center of the two .865 angles!




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cs_specialist
star
07/23/05 07:38 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

[[If you really think the artificial argument was proven wrong after those nine threads, you're the one deluding yourself. Like a little school boy, all you have is denial.... If we're playing in a sandbox, you're in the catbox, and NASA is kicking litter all over you. ]]

I see some self-styled "skeptics" are all atwitter over this article about how cold Mars supposedly has been. It seems like the news media publishes an article about life on Mars with "throws cold water on" in the title about once a year, just to keep the "skeptics" happy.

What I find puzzling is how these scientists know that Mars has been cold for over 4 billion years. The ONLY suspected martian meteorite older than 1.3 billion years is ALH84001, the one that some scientists think shows indications of fossils.

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/research-curation/projects/martian-met/Marshtml/2meteorites.html

It seems kind of unscientific to speculate on Mars entire climate history for 4 billion years based on a sample of ONE meteorite. Besides that, temps higher than 70 degrees F have been measured by the landers on Mars in recent years. Maybe their theory needs a little work. Oh well, they did get an article published by the "mainstream media," and as everybody knows, getting publicity is all that really counts in science.

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vogon13
solar system
07/23/05 07:45 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

ROTFLMFAO!

Your 'eye' diagram looks more like lips.

And not the ones found on half the worlds faces.

Rorsarched yourself, this time.



Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines.

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/23/05 08:22 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: cs_specialist][link to this post]  

Thanks for the lucid comments, Cs

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ZenOnMars
asteroid
07/23/05 10:27 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: cs_specialist][link to this post]  

Yep, and what if that meteorite is not from Mars? What if it was from the "exploded planet" mars revolved around? The argon ratios would not be known, and therefore no accurate assessment of time-of-freeze could be assessed.

cs said, "and as everybody knows, getting publicity is all that really counts in science" Richard Hoagland suggested a "Bobby Innman" connection to this article (NSA, DIA). Publicity that clouds the current issues (for example, the conflicting Deep Impact info, and especially the lack of it!) is especially precious to the intelligensia.

http://www.enterprisemission.com/weblog/weblog.htm

"curiously un-curious"

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odysseus145
planet
07/23/05 11:44 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ZenOnMars][link to this post]  

Exploded planet?

Have you ever noticed anyone going slower than you is an idiot and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

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petepan
planet
07/24/05 07:30 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I don't know what to elaborate on, really. 69.4 is exactly that, the 'back' angle of the pentagon proposed by Torun

OIC, it was me misinterpreting what was presented. The wording 'threw' me.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/24/05 07:42 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: petepan][link to this post]  

Np, Pete

Outstanding.... it's repeatable

This image is actually much sharper.... even more precise!

Even more detail in the ruined artifacts can be seen 4 sure!


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generaly
nucleus
07/25/05 03:27 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Photoshop Buffs,

Now that Mars Express (ME) is on the job, you would expect that you would now have many new hi-res Cydonia images to mark up. But Noooooo...

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/index.html

I did a search for Cydonia and interestingly there were no images but I did come up with the following from the FAQs (my comments in parentheses):

“When will Mars Express HRSC take pictures of the so-called ‘face’ in the Cydonia region?
ESA’s Mars Express orbiter was not in a suitable position to collect images of Cydonia area until late in 2004. Until then, Mars Express could observe closely only southern latitude features. Planetary scientists are interested in Cydonia because it is part of the boundary between highland and lowland areas, and it was planned to map this boundary area during October 2004.
Mars Express did cover this area during orbit 262 but it was not possible to obtain images of high enough quality due to factors such as the swath width at that location, atmospheric distortion and poor resolution. (More of that interestingly strange, “If the image isn’t perfect, we won’t release it.) Now, the highland/lowland boundary will be covered in January to February 2005. (Great! So where are the images???)
When the orbiter arrives over a suitable position in the northern hemisphere, it will be using its High Resolution Stereo Camera in the course of its planned and routine mapping of the surface, but not specifically to study any ‘face-like’ features. The mesas of Cydonia are of interest to planetary scientists, but they are not a priority for observations. These images will be used to look at the geological formations in this region to see where water once flowed, as some scientists think the northern plains are all that is left of an ancient Martian ocean.
Twenty five years ago, NASA's Viking 1 spacecraft was circling Mars, taking photographs of possible landing sites for its twin, Viking 2, when it spotted the shadowy likeness of a human face in the region of the Red Planet called Cydonia. The ‘Face on Mars’ became a popular icon. It has starred in films and appeared in books and magazines for 25 years! Some people thought the ‘face’ is real evidence of life on Mars.
Although most scientists did not believe the face was an alien artifact, photographing Cydonia became a priority for NASA’s Mars Global Surveyor when it arrived at the Red Planet in 1997. In April 1998, Mars Global Surveyor flew over Cydonia for the first time and took a high-resolution photograph, ten times sharper than the original Viking pictures. It revealed a natural landform, there was no alien monument after all.
But not everyone was satisfied, because the camera on board Mars Global Surveyor had to peer through wispy clouds to see the surface. Perhaps, the sceptics said, alien markings were hidden by haze. In 2001, Mars Global Surveyor drew close enough for a second look and captured an extraordinary photograph using maximum resolution. Each pixel in the 2001 image represented 1.5 metres, compared to 43 metres per pixel in the best Viking image from 1976.
The picture showed a feature called a ‘mesa’, like the landforms common in western USA. The Cydonia region is littered with many mesas like this, but which do not look like human heads and they attract little popular attention. Subsequent laser altimetry scans, with height measurements made to within 20 to 30 centimetres, confirm that its shape and all of its dimensions are similar to the other mesas and not exotic in any way. (Really? Do they really have a topographical image with a vertical resolution of 20-30 cm? What is the side-to-side resolution? Where is this image, I want to see it?)”

For some reason, the JPL site didn't give me the warm and fuzzies:

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/msss/camera/images/4_6_face_release/index.html

All righty then, so where are ESA's ME images?

Does anyone know if the ESA has released the ME images of Cydonia in some other manner besides their website? If necessary, is it possible to do a European version of a FOIA request?

I am so confused! Am I missing something here? I don’t know whether to be incredulous or credulous.

PhotoShop until you drop!

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odysseus145
planet
07/25/05 06:12 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: generaly][link to this post]  

That's the way ESA is with most of their missions. It's not a conspiracy; ESA is just not as open with their data as NASA is.

Have you ever noticed anyone going slower than you is an idiot and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

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JonClarke
planet
07/25/05 06:22 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: odysseus145][link to this post]  

ESA is just as open as NASA, their release schedule is different. All ME data will be publically released, typically every 6 months there is a large block added to the open archive. However isn't available in a format easily accessible by the casual web surfer. But for those who want to do work on the data it is available.

Jon

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JonClarke
planet
07/25/05 06:33 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: generaly][link to this post]  

ME photos of Cydonia will show perfectly natural hills and mesas, just like all the other images. How many missions will it take for you admit this?

Jon

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/25/05 10:10 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: generaly][link to this post]  

Hi Generaly,

Don't these look like ME pics? To be honest, I'm not positive. All I got were the pics. Not much info.

www.commonsensecentral.com/2005/V10910007newax.jpg
www.commonsensecentral.com/2005/V12445004newax.jpg
www.commonsensecentral.com/2005/V13356004newax.jpg

I think 'ol Keith may be getting ready to spring a surprise....

So, Jon.... It doesn't impress you that the eyes of FOM1 and FOM2 are exactly 66.6 degrees away from eachother?


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cs_specialist
star
07/25/05 10:42 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

[[Don't these look like ME pics? To be honest, I'm not positive. All I got were the pics. Not much info. ]]

They look like they're from the Odyssey Themis imager. That's NASA.

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/25/05 10:55 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: cs_specialist][link to this post]  

You're probably right, cs... Themis was mentioned, but not in refrence to the links.

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Dragon04
comet
07/26/05 12:57 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

How large are these features? In particular, how large is the one where your irregular pentagon is?

I've seen a lot of images of the area but there's never a scale noted anywhere I've looked.

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vogon13
solar system
07/26/05 01:15 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Is scale of photo large enough that great circle shape of lines should be apparent? Haven't calculated how many pixels the tips of the lines would be off without this correction, but suspect if scale is large enough than another source of error exists. And perhaps lines would align better with that correction?

Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines.

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/26/05 08:30 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Dragon04][link to this post]  

Hi Dragon,

Here ya go, bro.... I scanned in a couple of pics out of Carlotto's book "The Martian Enigmas". (Read that book!)

This should give you an idea as to how colossal these monuments really are.

The FOM itself, is about 1.5 km x 3 km.


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/26/05 08:32 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

One more size refrence pic for Dragon....


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/26/05 09:20 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

To be honest, my hopes for FOM3 did not pan out as well as I would have liked.

In the midst of my measuring, all the while hoping that, the next 66.6 degree ray would point through the western eye of FOM3, I was rather excited I was sure.... instead it hits the eastern side.


At first, I wrote off FOM3. But now, as I revisit it, double check my measurements for posting at SDC, and think about it, I think hitting the eastern side is still good.

I dunno, what do y'all think? Is FOM3 still a good candidate to actually be a face?

edit: incomplete thought

Edited by Maxtheknife (07/26/05 10:11 PM)


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/26/05 09:23 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I mean, it's exactly 3.0 degrees to the middle of the western eye.....


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/26/05 09:33 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

btw, here's FOM2 close up.

See the slanted eye? W/ the green line going through it?


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/27/05 08:59 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Well, apparently the detail of that slanted 'eye' gets lost in the saving, scaling, and posting. It may be my crappy monitor here at work too....

When Keith's site is back up, http://www.keithlaney.com/ , go look at the original and verify the 'eye' for yourself.

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/27/05 09:21 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Since we're on the Faces, now is as good a time as any....

Remember these images? Telf's and Max's independant traces of the FOM. There is one feature that Telfrow didn't trace, at least not in full...... Let's call it Colin's pimple....

I traced everything that's visable and I saw a straight line plus two others which all converge at another 'mound'. Aka, 'Colin's pimple'.

The whole time the FOM was the topic of discussion, I kept asking.... has anyone measured the lines? Has anyone measured the lines? Nope.

Anyway, here are the the two traces of the face on Mars. Notice the headress line, and other specific features.


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/27/05 09:31 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Here is the orthorectified pic w/ no measurments.....


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/27/05 09:35 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Now I've actually heard Richard say that e/pi is literally all over the FOM..... So,,,, I actually measured....


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telfrow
star
07/27/05 09:38 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Not going to work this time Max.

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, how amazingly unlikely is your birth;
and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space… 'cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

- Monty Python, “The Galaxy Song”

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/27/05 09:39 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

The two small triangles are equal. They may be hard to read, so you know, they're each 66.6, 49.6..... VFN, what's the last angle? Is it relevant to e/pi?

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/27/05 09:44 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

It must be my crappy work monitor and graphics card. I can see the slanted eye here at home.

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/27/05 10:14 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

While y'all ponder the FOM measurments, here's a 'coincidental' 85.3 created by rays previously laid out. Those rays are: City center through Teardrop + axis of symmetry ray for the D&M's platform.

Also, I've dropped a near perfect 60 degree triangle upon that ruined tetrahedron and bisected it twice. I assumed the ruined tetrahedron's apex, which I used in a previous measurment, was correct. Plus I assumed that the ray from the D&M's apex through the ruined pyramid's apex would bisect it's base. That is how I anchored it.


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generaly
nucleus
07/28/05 04:26 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

NASA is searching for fossils on Mars?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/07/050728062306.htm

And the ESA, what are they doing?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050223165359.htm

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/28/05 09:14 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: generaly][link to this post]  

Generaly..... Next misssion, next time.....

First line of the first link... Astrobiologists, who search for evidence of life on other planets, may find a proposed Neutron/Gamma ray Geologic Tomography (NUGGET) instrument to be one of the most useful tools in their toolbelt.

Ever notice how the word may is always in there? NASA ground down the obvious crinoid candidate! http://www.enterprisemission.com/_articles/03-08-2004/crinoid_cover-up.htm

They have no shame. And we just take it.


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/28/05 09:22 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

So then I bisected the ruined pyramid a third time and....

Uh-oh......


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/29/05 08:30 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

So, Packet..... just a coincidence? Nothing to measure you say?

What just happend is a huge coincidence. In fact from the 'natural' point of view, it's a statistical improbability. If not impossibility.

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crazyeddie
galaxy
07/29/05 03:54 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Almost everyone in the world realized long ago that these objects are just eroded hills. It must be pretty lonely being one of a handful of individuals who still thinks these are artificial.

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Maxtheknife
planet
07/30/05 11:52 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Wow..... how did this happen?!


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Maxtheknife
planet
07/30/05 12:05 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Then I had this idea....

Symbolism is embedded. Can you find it?


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Maxtheknife
planet
08/01/05 09:14 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

1300 views after 11 pages and zero comments or questions?!

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nopeonmars
atom
08/01/05 01:09 PM
Re: Incredible images at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Hey, dear supporters of Hoagland
I have found this incredible picture in oldest archives of NASA
On Mars, near North pole you can see this:


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Maxtheknife
planet
08/01/05 01:12 PM
Re: Incredible images at Cydonia new [re: nopeonmars][link to this post]  

Yeah, I saw that in another thread. Looks like one of NASA's tetrahedral landers.

What do you think about the work I've presented, Nopeonmars?

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nopeonmars
atom
08/01/05 01:16 PM
Re: Space craps at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I think you are a biggest gang of fantastic little children that like magic

Edited by nopeonmars (08/01/05 01:32 PM)

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generaly
nucleus
08/01/05 01:54 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Max!

Okay, here is a comment! Your grids and angles are interesting and beautiful! If nothing else, you are creating lovely works of geek art! It takes a lot less time to just view your works than it does to create my own… So, keep up the good work! Lots of Views mean that people are getting SOMETHING from what you are doing. On the other hand, making lots of posts with little response can leave a person feeling like they are just talking to themselves.

By the way, have you done any geometry on Hyperion?

About Hyperion geometry – I performed an expensive, high-level experiment with a tennis ball, a ruler and a pen. What I found was a straight line drawn onto the ball “looks” straight when viewed from directly above. However, when I rotated the ball the line quickly “looked” like a curve. Point being – if you don’t have a straight down view, you might not get the same geometry as that “intended” by a surface builder. (For example, if we made a wall here on earth that followed a direct line for 1,000 miles, and you were in outer space, it will only “look” straight from directly above. Of course I say “look,” because the wall would be actually be following the curvature of the earth.) The problem with Hyperion is that it is so small that there is very little “straight down” to view from a single image.

This brings up the next problems with Hyperion geometry – Hyperion is so small that its curvature is much greater than that of Mars. Also, it is oddly shaped and its topology is very funky. That said, I will be in your cheering section if you can “discover” any anomalous geometries on Hyperion.

If we had accurate 3D models of bodies like Hyperion, Iapetus and even Mars – the geometry would be much more “meaningful.”

In any case, we need to send a US spacecraft to claim Hyperion now, before the Chinese beat us to it! :-)

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nopeonmars
atom
08/01/05 01:55 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Why are you drawing all those lines on that fake image of Mars?
What do you want to demonstrate?
Do you not notice that image is a modern sculpture?

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nopeonmars
atom
08/01/05 02:01 PM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: nopeonmars][link to this post]  

What is Hiperion?
Show me a drawing, please.

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Maxtheknife
planet
08/01/05 02:21 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: generaly][link to this post]  

~~whew~~ thank goodness somebody responded!

Hi Generaly!

No, I have not done anything w/ Hyperion. Post some pics, and I'll play w/ them

Interesting.... the tennis ball experiment. I believe you're talking about the issue of orthorectification.

The SDC gang and I talked at great length about that. Mostly in Civ on Mars part 4 (I think). Calli actually posted a relevant post about skewing in this thread.... http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=seti&Number=277243&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=all&vc=1

The general consensus seems to be that we're close enough to being directly overhead that there shouldn't be much skewing of sight lines at all. The insistence by the SDC crew that this was so is what prompted me to do all of this.

As a tip of the cap to many of you here at SDC, I've learned quite a bit since I joined back in Jan of 2005. Many, many thanks!

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Maxtheknife
planet
08/01/05 02:26 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nopeonmars][link to this post]  

Haven't I responded to those questions under a different handle, in a different forum?

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generaly
nucleus
08/01/05 02:35 PM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: nopeonmars][link to this post]  

Hyperion is a very interesting moon around Saturn – the most interesting part is that it is at least 40% void spaces – in other words, a hollow moon.

There are some pretty good images so far, with more on the way! Because Hyperion is so close to Titan, by the time the mission is over, there will be many great opportunities for excellent shots. The following allows you to click through the frames of a movie:

http://ciclops.org/view.php?id=1192

As far as I am aware, NASA was the first to notice that Hyperion has a “face” with a nose and other features. Not only that, but the whole moon is kind of head shaped… Could this be another ALIEN HEAD?


This gives me a chance to cross-post one of my old posts from an Iapetus thread, I hope you enjoy it:

How About Hyperion?

Interesting –

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/media/cassini-071105.html

What could be done with a moon that is:

1. Large (204 by 162 by 132 miles) – Lots of elbow room,
2. Porous (>40%) – Lots of spaces that could be sealed off and pressurized,
3. Made of water – What use could be made of water, I forget… Oh, I remember: you can drink it, grow in it, use it in chemical processes, swim in it, break it apart and breathe the oxygen, and a lot of other stuff. It even blocks radiation!
4. Chaotically Spinning – A little full gravity exercise would do a body good – and if you don’t like the view, just wait a couple of seconds.
5. Dark material concentrated in the bottoms of visible craters – Surely we can find some use for this stuff,
6. Synched with Titan (and Iapetus) – Well, at least it’s in a somewhat interesting neighborhood.

Hyperion gets my nod for the best "potential" existing (natural or artificial) space station in the whole solar system!

As a matter of fact, I’m going to reserve my room right now.

Oh yes – could it be artificial? If it looks like such a great space station location to me, might it have once looked good to an ALIEN RACE?!?

Could this moon have once been used by the artificial Iapetus ALIENS to help mine organic materials from Titan? Materials used to make or repair their carbon fiber structures? (Got to stay on topic.) Artificial Iapetus / artificial Hyperion – who knows?

Ah, so many interesting places to visit – so few ways to get there…


EDIT +

Darn It! If you no one else is going to flame me, I’ll do it to myself – “Generaly, you are truly a nut case! Anyone who would even propose that an ALIEN RACE would inhabit Hyperion is off his rocker! Insane in the membrane! He’s insane; he’s got no brain! And, what’s all this about Hoagland? You are obviously a newbie – this means that you are a paid and brainwashed Hoagland Troll sent to spread his unscientific mumbo-jumbo. I’ll bet you are one of those low-life, mostly self-taught, don’t-know-what-to-call-you – anything but scientist! Kind of like Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and all those other pre-forced schooling know-nothings!” Hey, that was kind of fun! So fun, that I think that I will try out commenting to myself as well…

Generaly, you left out the usage of water as a propellant. Arthur C. Clark in 2010 had the Chinese pull a sneak landing on Europa for the express purpose of pumping up water for usage as a propellant to get back home. If Hyperion is really made out of ice, it is clear that we must send a manned mission to Hyperion, plant a flag, and claim it for the sole and complete usage of Spain! I mean, America! Which was only named by a German for an Italian who had a business in Spain… Another GREAT IDEA! If there are any ALIENS still hibernating there, we could wake them up, convert them to Catholicism and/or use them as slaves!

Back to my voice – Looking back over this post, it looks like one of the strangest that I have seen on Space.com. For some reason, this makes me feel kind of proud. If I don’t say so myself, I should get some kind of award for self-conversations, and creative usage of hyphens…

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generaly
atom
08/01/05 02:42 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

The following are the only images of Hyperion that I have been able to locate.

http://ciclops.org/search.php?search=hyperion

Personally, I like the images in the movie - they are of a reasonable resolution and because they follow the movement of the moon it is easy to follow the various features of the moon as it tumbles.

Thanks for giving this a shot…

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nopeonmars
molecule
08/01/05 03:36 PM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: generaly][link to this post]  

Ha, but then Hiperion is only a stone, another fake space object made by New Animation Softwares Agency (NASA for friends).

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ZenOnMars
asteroid
08/01/05 05:58 PM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: generaly][link to this post]  

Generaly: " Darn It! If you no one else is going to flame me, I’ll do it to myself – “Generaly, you are truly a nut case! Anyone who would even propose that an ALIEN RACE would inhabit Hyperion is off his rocker! Insane in the membrane! He’s insane; he’s got no brain! And, what’s all this about Hoagland?"

LOLOL...............!!!! There, you answered your own question.......hehehe say "Hoagland", and you will be flamed!!!! Hehehe......

PS..........And I have noticed something. The SDC "oldies" are very territorial about "their" threads. Post anywhere else, and we get jummped on. But when we (Max and myself) opened our own threads here, they looked, but would not "bite".

"curiously un-curious"

Edited by ZenOnMars (08/01/05 06:03 PM)

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petepan
planet
08/01/05 07:25 PM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: nopeonmars][link to this post]  

You contradict your self bigbrain.

first you say ...Ha, but then Hiperion[sic] is only a stone

then you add....another fake space object made by.....

So which is it, a stone or a fake?

EDIT: BTW, how is this relevant to Cydonia?

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)

Edited by petepan (08/01/05 07:26 PM)

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nopeonmars
molecule
08/02/05 06:36 AM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: petepan][link to this post]  

Wow, I have found another incredible picture in oldest archives of NASA.
Look at the magic lines that say how much intelligent martian architects were.
They already knew Red Zen, Blue Tao, Black Mantra.
Incredible, incredible, incredible.


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nopeonmars
molecule
08/02/05 07:05 AM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: petepan][link to this post]  

"So which is it, a stone or a fake?"

A fake stone like Cydonia.

Cydonia is a modern sculpture made by Wayne Lee, the famous Chinese that works at NASA and can steer the probes to space objects even 1,500,000,000 kilometers distant looking at his computer.

He uses the powerful software "SYEDKWYAWYTRY"
"I Steer You Even if I Don't Know Where You Are and Where is Your Target as Regards You"

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najaBModerator
solar system
08/02/05 07:48 AM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: nopeonmars][link to this post]  

Wow. BigBrain skewering Max....this is almost too gory to watch.


Almost.

This space for rent....

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telfrow
solar system
08/02/05 07:49 AM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: najaB][link to this post]  





So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, how amazingly unlikely is your birth;
and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space… 'cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

- Monty Python, “The Galaxy Song”

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Maxtheknife
planet
08/02/05 08:35 AM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

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telfrow
solar system
08/02/05 08:38 AM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: najaB][link to this post]  

Sorry to go off topic here, Max, but a quick question for najaB...if you're convinced it's BB, why is he still here?

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, how amazingly unlikely is your birth;
and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space… 'cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

- Monty Python, “The Galaxy Song”

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najaBModerator
solar system
08/02/05 08:50 AM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

>...if you're convinced it's BB, why is he still here?

Or is he....?

This space for rent....

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telfrow
solar system
08/02/05 08:52 AM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: najaB][link to this post]  

My apologies....

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, how amazingly unlikely is your birth;
and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space… 'cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

- Monty Python, “The Galaxy Song”

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skyeagle409
cluster
08/02/05 09:00 AM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: nopeonmars][link to this post]  

nopeonmars---Cydonia is a modern sculpture made by Wayne Lee, the famous Chinese that works at NASA and can steer the probes to space objects even 1,500,000,000 kilometers distant looking at his computer.

nopeonmars,

Goes to show that you have no idea what is going on, and you are proving it for all to see.

Missions to Mars are fantastic undertakings of mankind and only a person with a "Flat Earth" mentality would challenge such reality.

Edited by skyeagle409 (08/02/05 07:26 PM)

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Maxtheknife
planet
08/02/05 09:27 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: skyeagle409][link to this post]  

Thanks Sky, Telf, Naj.... I don't mind Nope too much. His work is very creative, don't you agree?

You all are in for a big surprise soon.

Turns out, there are some minor corrections that need to be made to my measurments.....

"Stay Tuned"

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a_lost_packet_
solar system
08/02/05 09:32 AM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: najaB][link to this post]  

najab - Wow. BigBrain skewering Max....this is almost too gory to watch. Almost.

LOL


Go get 'im bigbrain!


Anyone want any popcorn? [sits down to enjoy the show]


a_lost_packet_

cluster++

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generaly
atom
08/02/05 02:43 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Max,

The below is the best picture (small file size – this image is much better http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/tiff/PIA06245.tif ) of Hyperion that I have found. It looks like there is a major crater and impact damage at about 8 o’clock on the moon, I believe the NASA “nose” is located at 4 o’clock, and there is a “slide” area at about 2 o’clock. Most interesting to me is the “honeycomb” area in the front of the moon. You can see how some of the craters line up with each other. These are very strange looking craters which NASA claims contain dark materials in the bottoms. But, could the dark areas be shadows, and the bottoms unknown? There are also some smaller craters on the left side of the moon that seem to line up with each other. I will be looking forward to whatever you do with these images: graphics illuminating faces/heads, interesting geometry or whatever.

If Hyperion was made or modified by an ALEN RACE, what kind of artificial effects would still be noticeable after a long period of time?

Also, could Hyperion just be a big dirty snowball that is lightly compacted? There certainly are a lot of void spaces in a snowball as shown by the small amount of water that comes from melting one. But, if it were a big snowball, I would expect that impacts on the surface would penetrate the moon deeply, ultimately producing lots of large void spaces anyway.

NASA seems to think the moon is formed of almost all ice, but if it is actually made of a high percentage of rock; there would be even an even greater amount of void spaces.

Of course if water was able to have carved out the gigantic masses on Mars, it must have created some caves near its surface. Caves that could be sealed off, and pressurized for human habitation. Ice caves are even better, or maybe we could just melt our own. It beats having to expensively ship much smaller pre-built modules from earth.

Generaly.


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skyeagle409
cluster
08/02/05 09:11 PM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: nopeonmars][link to this post]  



nopeonmars---Cydonia is a modern sculpture made by Wayne Lee, the famous Chinese that works at NASA...

http://www.waynelee.com/

nopeonmars,

You say that Wayne Lee is Chinese and works for NASA??? Better get those eyes of yours, checked!

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skyeagle409
cluster
08/02/05 09:13 PM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: nopeonmars][link to this post]  



nopeonmars---Wow, I have found another incredible picture in oldest archives of NASA.

You did?? Well, shut my mouth wide open!!

http://marsweb.jpl.nasa.gov/

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skyeagle409
cluster
08/02/05 09:19 PM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: nopeonmars][link to this post]  


nopeonmars---Wow, I have found another incredible picture in oldest archives of NASA.



sky---Let me guess! Could it be?

http://marsweb.jpl.nasa.gov/

or

http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/target/CYD1/

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skyeagle409
cluster
08/02/05 09:28 PM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: nopeonmars][link to this post]  

"...that say how much intelligent martian architects were."

http://www.war-of-the-worlds.org/Technology/

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skyeagle409
cluster
08/02/05 09:36 PM
Re: Craps at Cydonia new [re: nopeonmars][link to this post]  




nopeonmars---What is Hiperion?
Show me a drawing, please

nopeonmars,

Okay! Considering the nature of what you have been posting, this site is your kind of place that no doubt will keep you occupied for hours.


http://www.hyperionbooksforchildren.com/contests.asp

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Maxtheknife
planet
08/03/05 01:42 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: generaly][link to this post]  

Hi Generaly,

I'm not sure exactly what to measure there. It all looks natural. There aren't any obvious ruined pyramidal or polyhedral shapes present. But I sure do love your enthusiasm!

Still working on my surprise.... heheh

"Stay tuned"

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TheSuperstar
nucleus
08/03/05 01:46 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

You can find a lot of those stones in aquariums.
In fact
>>> It all looks natural.

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generaly
atom
08/03/05 02:52 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Max,

That is ok, I will work on it myself – but I guess I need better graphics programs, like Photoshop. I am mostly interested in outlining the “faces” on the moon, and analyzing the alignment of the various craters.

Yes, it does look natural – but maybe a few million years of impacts has made it appear so. I will attempt to see if I can find some underlying regular, repeating features.

I’m looking forward to your surprise!

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TheSuperstar
atom
08/03/05 03:17 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: generaly][link to this post]  

Go to any aquaria-shop and you'll find a stone like that.
You can observe it at home.

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generaly
atom
10/01/05 11:30 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: TheSuperstar][link to this post]  

Earthlings,

Lets hear it for the great new pix of Hyperion - like the below!!!

Lets see what kind of additional evidence of ALIEN inhabitation that I can detect…

Well, lets see…the entire side of this GIANT ALIEN HEAD appears to have sank into itself. Could this be because this moon is hollow, and the surface is starting to sink after millions of years?

But don’t worry too much about this…most of this GIANT ALIEN HEAD/Titan mining space station appears to be still intact. There will still be lots of living quarters, mining equipment and other neat ALIEN TECHNOLOGY that we can exploit. And hey, I’m still hoping for a few frozen ALIENS that we can thaw out, and force to mine Titan again. But, we obviously need to do a bit of cleaning up first.

Truly, the ALIENS have fallen down on the housekeeping aspects of Hyperion, Iapetus and Cydonia. What’s up with that? Do they think that they have something more important to think about? What the heck does an intelligence think about that has been evolving at a hyper-drive speed for millions of years?

Could it be: MESSING WITH THE SUN!?!?!

Generaly.


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Maxtheknife
planet
10/01/05 01:25 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: generaly][link to this post]  

Generaly: Truly, the ALIENS have fallen down on the housekeeping aspects of Hyperion, Iapetus and Cydonia.

No they haven't.

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generaly
atom
10/02/05 10:29 AM
What are the ALIENS doing to "our" sun??? new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Terrestrial Dependants of the Sun:

What are the ALIENS doing to “our” sun? (See below)

With “a nip nip here and a tuck tuck there” “our” sun will be just as good as new!

Check out this website for a good dose of FREAKY TECH on "our" sun!!!

http://www.weatherwars.info/soho.htm

Could it be cosmic rays on the chips, or could it could be ALIENS, ALIENS and even more ALIENS!!!

Want more info on the ALIENS? What the heck, get in on the good side of those WACKY INDIANS here…

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/tech_default.asp

The answer is out there –

Generaly


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MarieCurie
rock
10/03/05 07:38 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: generaly][link to this post]  

I think this moon looks like a giant sea-sponge.

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bonzelite
star
01/22/06 11:15 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: MarieCurie][link to this post]  

i'm resuurecting the Cydonia thread for those who wish to specifically present further debate specific to the phenomena present at that location, and it's pertinent geometry.



in-n-out burger

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bonzelite
star
01/22/06 11:30 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  


Section two is pretty much gone. All that remains is what has been interpreted as a former entrance or perhaps an exit wound from a massive internal explosion of some sort.


my first idea is the collapse is due to an aggregate regolith/ice compaction giving way under pressure of the edifice's own weight. were the pyramid formation largely composed of this soil/ice mixture, any internal melting or changing-of-state of the ice would destabilize the structure. in this case, an entire face has slid down and flowed out as the base destabilized.

in-n-out burger

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nifty
planet
01/23/06 10:54 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

I tried to reproduce Hoglands results but unfortunately I after I had done the D&M Pyramid I felt bad about all the other structures present and didn't want them to be left out. Actually I think I'm on to something here... It could very well be definitive proof, does anyone know CNN's phone number and how much I should charge them for exclusive rights?

You are free to do as we tell you


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Maxtheknife
star
01/23/06 12:16 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

lolol, that's precious. If I didn't know any better, I'd say someone is just a little jealous.

Heheh

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Heliox
atom
01/23/06 12:53 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

Well im convinced....although i think you need to add one more green line randomly to totally convince me

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crazyeddie
galaxy
01/23/06 01:19 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

LOL It looks like somebody spilled a can of pickup-stix onto a map of Mars!

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qso1
comet
01/24/06 01:15 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Hoagland took a bunch of Viking orbiter images starting with the alleged face and came up with a bunch of hoagwash to support the idea ancient martian civilizations once existed.

Hoagwash such as meaningless numbers and angles that he gave his own meanings to guess what...make money folks! Money off of books and radio shows.

Start with Viking imagery...newer images of Mars at much higher resolution showed the face very differently. This demonstrates what can happen when one uses just a few examples to try to prove something. The more likely explanation for artificial looking edges ect. is the computer imaging algorithms. Computers sharpen edges in a process known as aliasing as anyone familiar with computer 3D graphics and imaging can tell you.

Hoagland also maintained that there were great cities and a runway on Mars. For some odd reason, the runway was positioned 180 degrees from the city near the face. Doesn't seem too practical.

For awhile, Hoagland was convincing or in my case, since I wasn't ever convinced...challenging may be the better word here.

Challenging because he skillfully mixed real science in with his claims. When he began seeing 9 mile high obolisks on the moon, he was done (No longer challenging) in my view.

I will shortly post what we should be dropping our jaws at and rest assured, it has yet to happen...stay tuned!

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qso1
comet
01/24/06 01:32 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

Starting with these images, the Viking orbiter imaged face is the one on the left. The Mars Global Surveyor images are center and right. One was processed as a negative but the only thing to focus on here is the major differences.

It appears that the MGS image reveals massive amounts of erosion. This should not be so on a planet with very little atmosphere. The explanation, time of day, camera angle, and imaging resolution. MGS has quite a bit better imaging capability than Viking did.

Having said this, one still cannot infer this is in fact, a representation of a face based on these images alone.
Nor could one infer any other artificial structures based on any spacecraft imagery.


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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 01:39 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

Another wonderful, albeit meaningless, post. Keep 'em coming. They're priceless!

Remember what Yevaud told us. The point of science is to disprove theories. Not validate them.

Since we know this is true, simply because Yevaud says it is, you better start finding some mistakes in my work. I'd hate to be right, even though I'm really wrong, cuz I failed to disprove the theory.... Huh?

This is fun... I'm glad y'all found 'it'.

Oh, Calli.... If I really did "eyeball" something, you'll be sure to let me know exactly what it was, right?

Thanx,

Maxdnyf

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qso1
comet
01/24/06 01:39 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

This image is one of the face and surrounding terrain. To show what I mean by reaching...consider Hoagland built an entire line of Hoagwash around this face.

Smart guy though, guarantee he's richer than me!


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telfrow
solar system
01/24/06 01:41 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

RE: FOM

------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson


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qso1
comet
01/24/06 01:41 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

This image is one that if ever taken by NASA, will be a jaw dropper. The NASA brass will be falling all over themselves to get the budget for a manned Mars mission and Congress will be right with them!


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qso1
comet
01/24/06 01:44 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

On Hyperion:

The image of Hyperion is taken with better resolution than Viking images, there is no atmosphere to diffuse surface features and the surface features themselves are resulting from different processes than the Martian surface.

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 01:49 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

Have anything to contribute with regards to the actual thread topic, qso?

Where's the SDC hijack police when you really need them?! Hahahahaaaaaa

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qso1
comet
01/24/06 01:52 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

This appears to be relevant to the thread if were about trying to determine whether certain features on Mars are artificial as it appeared.

Are there others here who think my posts are not relevent to this subject?

If so, sorry, I will delete my posts shortly.

Edited by qso1 (01/24/06 01:53 PM)

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 01:55 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

I won't complain too much as the thread sort of drifted off towards the end of July, 2005.

I may be adding to it soon, so I'd appreciate it if you could try to stay on topic.

Look at the detailed and impressive work Nifty turned in!

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qso1
comet
01/24/06 01:57 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Well, how bout reminding us what exactly was the topic?

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nifty
planet
01/24/06 01:59 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

OK serious question for you -

How does one decide which features to draw lines over when there are so many features on the terrain in question?

Rat Finks keep thier forked tongues behind thier teeth

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telfrow
solar system
01/24/06 02:06 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Where's the SDC hijack police when you really need them?! Hahahahaaaaaa

Well given your past references, I guess I should assume that's directed to me.

So, let’s see… first of all, the FOM is part of Cydonia. Secondly, you showed or mentioned it on page 1, four times on page 2, three times on page 4, once on page 7, twice on page 8….etc., etc.

And Hyperion was mentioned by your friend, generally, on page 15.

So how is anything qso1 posted qualify as a hijacking?



------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 02:06 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

Lol, nice sign off line, Nifty!

Well, I described how I did it in detail in the first couple pages of this thread.

Examine the image and start measuring for yourself. Before I even had photoshop, I just put a protractor on the screen!

The model is precise and only works one way. It helps a little if you've read and listened to the works of those who paved the way.

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nifty
planet
01/24/06 02:11 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I don't know which rocks to start putting lines on theres so many there and besides what the point if the only way I can do it is your way? Where's the fun in that?

Rat Finks keep thier forked tongues behind thier teeth

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 02:12 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

Got something relevant to say about the geometry, Telfrow, then say it.

My comments were/are rhetorical. You didn't honestly think I expected you to 'do your duty' on my behalf, did you?

So Telfrow, which of my measurments is wrong, inaccurate, or eyeballed? Hmmmm?

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 02:18 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

Huh? Read it again.

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telfrow
solar system
01/24/06 02:20 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Your comments are never "rhetorical," Max. We learned that through experience.

And don't worry - SDC may soon have real hijack police!

------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 02:23 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

I'm not worried, Telfrow.

Seems you are, though.

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nifty
planet
01/24/06 02:32 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I'm not disputing your protractor skills, I'm disputing where you have put your lines, you can't just put lines down where it's convenient to you that’s just not science Max.


Rat Finks keep thier forked tongues behind thier teeth

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Yevaud
galaxy
01/24/06 02:42 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

In reply to:

Max: Another wonderful, albeit meaningless, post. Keep 'em coming. They're priceless!

Remember what Yevaud told us. The point of science is to disprove theories. Not validate them.

Since we know this is true, simply because Yevaud says it is, you better start finding some mistakes in my work. I'd hate to be right, even though I'm really wrong, cuz I failed to disprove the theory.... Huh?




...

These are excerpt as to the Scientific Method from one of the University of California's Physics Departments. Is that sufficient for you? Please note the bolded areas, and in particular, the one's bolded and in orange.

What is the ``scientific method''?

The scientific method is the best way yet discovered for winnowing the truth from lies and delusion. The simple version looks something like this:

* 1. Observe some aspect of the universe.
* 2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is consistent with what you have observed.
* 3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions.
* 4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in the light of your results.
* 5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation.

...

When consistency is obtained the hypothesis becomes a theory and provides a coherent set of propositions which explain a class of phenomena. A theory is then a framework within which observations are explained and predictions are made.

...

A theory is accepted not based on the prestige or convincing powers of the proponent, but on the results obtained through observations and/or experiments which anyone can reproduce: the results obtained using the scientific method are repeatable. In fact, most experiments and observations are repeated many times (certain experiments are not repeated independently but are repeated as parts of other experiments). If the original claims are not verified the origin of such discrepancies is hunted down and exhaustively studied.

...

There is a very important characteristic of a scientific theory or hypothesis which differentiates it from, for example, an act of faith: a theory must be ``falsifiable''. This means that there must be some experiment or possible discovery that could prove the theory untrue. For example, Einstein's theory of Relativity made predictions about the results of experiments. These experiments could have produced results that contradicted Einstein, so the theory was (and still is) falsifiable.

...

There are many types of ``pseudo-scientific'' theories which wrap themselves in a mantle of apparent experimental evidence but that, when examined closely, are nothing but statements of faith.


Now Sir. You were saying...?


"You can indict a Ham Sandwich with a Grand Jury."

Tom Delay

Edited by Yevaud (01/24/06 02:49 PM)

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 03:09 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

So, show me where you think they should go. Then tell me if the model works.

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 03:10 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Yeah, so... What's your problem then?

Examine the measurments closely and tell me what I did wrong.

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 03:18 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

Nifty: that’s just not science Max.

What is it w/ you guys? Again with the Ron Burgandy, Anchorman quotes! lololol crackin' me up!

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 03:23 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

You didn't highlight this part, Yevaud...

which anyone can reproduce: the results obtained using the scientific method are repeatable.

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 03:26 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Lolololololololololololol.... That really is a fantastic post, Yevaud. Thanks for supporting the cause!

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 03:38 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Also, does the above post mean you want to retract this post, Yevaud? http://uplink.space.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=phenomena&Number=432213&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1

There's quite a bit of contradiction there....

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Yevaud
galaxy
01/24/06 03:47 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Repeatability does not in and of itself make something science, Max. I have no doubt you can measure all of the angles versus surface terrain features as you wish, and come up with the same figures. It is not a scientific explanation as to any particular relevance or relation to anything.

You believe that FOM *is* an artificial structure. That is really your beginning premise for all of these similar or related threads on the subject. So.

You can't just assume that this is so, and go right to the next thing. You can't ignore the fact, either. Why do you think I included that last section on the Scientific Method? I'll repeat it, and explain.

There are many types of ``pseudo-scientific'' theories which wrap themselves in a mantle of apparent experimental evidence but that, when examined closely, are nothing but statements of faith.

Merely assuming the FOM is artificial is apparent experimental evidence. And basing a body of work
upon it is nothing but a statement of faith.

You have not adequately or remotely explained, using science and the Scientific Method, your belief that the FOM is artificial.

That's why this thread is here.

Let me ask you, Max, have you ever considered what taking your proof and evidence to a real, honest-to-God empanelled peer review would be like? I've seen them before, and they can be a real son-of-a-beach. So very lucky we're both doing this here. But:

Why do you present your views, evidence, and arguments at SDC in such a long and involved manner, repeatedly, if not seeking a grass-roots peer-review? And that's the truth for you, me, anyone here you care to name, and you know it.

So you have presented your ideas, they have undergone exhaustive peer-review, and found to be lacking. Thus, this thread is here.

Look, Max, go back to the very beginning. Look at all of your evidence, step by step, come up with some plausible "proof" of any flavor that the FOM is artificial. That is all you have to do, and frankly, I'd say if you can do that then the angles and other features are irrelevant.

And you also know that if you hit a stumbling block while doing so, anyone at SDC will chime in an try to assist if you ask. But please don't keep getting into this metaphoric stubborn logjam where you can't and won't examine your own evidence.


"You can indict a Ham Sandwich with a Grand Jury."

Tom Delay

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qso1
comet
01/24/06 03:49 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

Thanks Telfrow:

I'd hoped I didnt imagine all the references you mentioned. In that case, I won't delete my posts unless a moderator says I have to, or the dreaded hijack police LOL.

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nifty
planet
01/24/06 03:51 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

So, show me where you think they should go. Then tell me if the model works.

This is where I think they should go, and no your model doesn't work, but hey neither does mine.

Rat Finks keep thier forked tongues behind thier teeth


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Yevaud
galaxy
01/24/06 03:52 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Having read what you posted while I was typing the above:

Truly you do not understand science, Max. Honest to God, you keep doing this "try to trip people up" act, and actually believe you have done so too.

And all it shows is that you don't understand the grinding slow process of science. You truly don't, and that's really sad. You laugh at false victories.

And anyone else who has an iota of scientific training or experience at SDC would agree. That IS how the Scientific Method works, and it's not a contradiction either.

You seem to believe that you can merely build the house, without ever testing it to make sure it won't fall down on you constantly, until the day it's done.


"You can indict a Ham Sandwich with a Grand Jury."

Tom Delay

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 03:53 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

Well, then, Before I even see your image, I guess I'm right!

Thanks, Nifty.

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 03:55 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Yevaud: without ever testing it to make sure it won't fall down on you constantly, until the day it's done.

Huh? Okalee dokalee, Yevauderino. If you say so.

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Yevaud
galaxy
01/24/06 03:57 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Irredeemable.

Enjoy the echoes in here.

Bye.


"You can indict a Ham Sandwich with a Grand Jury."

Tom Delay

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nifty
planet
01/24/06 03:57 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

So basically you're saying your mind is made up that your right and everyone else is wrong is it?

Rat Finks keep thier forked tongues behind thier teeth

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 04:01 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

I wonder what 'ol ZenonMars is up to...

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 04:06 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

everyone?

No... just the skeptics.

Nifty, the geometric model for Cydonia is precise. It only works one way. What part of that don't you understand?

The onus is on you to prove my measurments wrong.

Get busy if you think you can.

Work wins over lack of work every time.

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nifty
planet
01/24/06 04:10 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I told you don't dispute your measurements just the placement of the lines upon which your measuments are based.

by the way, watcha wearing?

Rat Finks keep thier forked tongues behind thier teeth

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Maxtheknife
star
01/24/06 04:14 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

One of the greatest quotes I've come across here at SDC since I came on the scene about a year or so ago was made by Jatslo.

In one of the Iapetus threads he said, "Holding hands with the majority does not guarantee victory."

How true, how true.

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nifty
planet
01/24/06 04:15 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Do you like holding hands?

Rat Finks keep thier forked tongues behind thier teeth

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harmonicaman
cluster
01/24/06 09:53 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

Why do so many people come in here and think they can make the exact same blunders as Percival Lowell and then believe their fallacious assumptions are somehow related to valid science? Get real!

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

- George Santayana (1863-1952)

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colesakick
rock
01/24/06 10:57 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: harmonicaman][link to this post]  

“Why do so many people come in here and think they can make the exact same blunders as Percival Lowell and then believe their fallacious assumptions are somehow related to valid science? Get real!”

Well, because, fallacious became vogue with fudging the guidelines of hard science to permit the acceptance of other such broad strokes as evolution theory. You guys move the lines to accommodate "progress" in your preferred directions and then want to slam the door shut on those who thought they were playing by established riles.

Science---pseudoscience, make a definitive call. Either the description of science is broad enough to include evolution theory AND Maxtheknife’s similar use of logical positivisms or real science is too narrow to permit either, your call. Choose wisely, your intellectual honesty is on the line


Intellectual honesty requires you suspend what you "know" long enough to intelligently consider novel information

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ag30476
atom
01/24/06 11:22 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: colesakick][link to this post]  

> Well, because, fallacious became vogue with fudging
> the guidelines of hard science to permit the
> acceptance of other such broad strokes as evolution > theory.
Says the guy writing in Phenomena. Get it if it's here it's not science. And evolution IS science. It was Behe at Dover that said HIS definition of science could include things like astrology. Your intellectual dishonesty is just as bad as Maxtheknife's. You and Maxtheknife confuse ADVOCACY for science.

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Maxtheknife
star
01/25/06 07:59 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: colesakick][link to this post]  

Wowow! Hi Colesakick Long time no see.

Very succinct and powerful post!

Thanx!

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Maxtheknife
star
01/25/06 08:05 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

Would that be advocacy for truth, ag?

If that's what you mean.... guilty as charged

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harmonicaman
cluster
01/25/06 08:38 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

To call something "Science" you must follow the rules of science. If what you are doing does not fit into the clearly defined rules of this process, then what you are doing can not correctly be called science.

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Maxtheknife
star
01/25/06 08:41 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: harmonicaman][link to this post]  

Wait... let me go back and check.....

Yep... rules followed.

Thanx for supporting the cause, Harmonicaman.

Edited by Maxtheknife (01/25/06 08:41 AM)

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harmonicaman
cluster
01/25/06 10:16 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

But you are repeating the exact same errors as were made by Percival Lowell! His assumptions were erroneous and you are making exactly the same kind of emotionally driven unsupportable claims.

It's a fine example of history repeating itself.

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Maxtheknife
star
01/25/06 10:20 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: harmonicaman][link to this post]  

Talk about emotionally driven, unsupportable claims...

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ag30476
atom
01/25/06 03:02 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

> Would that be advocacy for truth, ag?
>
> If that's what you mean.... guilty as charged
All advocates argue for the truth as they see it. That is not a problem in a competative or adverserial environment. For example, a defendant in a court of law needs a lawyer. We cannot pretend that science is not a competative field. However, one can still argue that the ideal of science is that a hypothesis is adopted based on its merit and not on the effectiveness of its advocates.

The point, which you seem to miss, is that you and colesakick are so convinced of your respective positions that you feel it is more important to convince others than to actually present your views with integrity. You also feel you do not have to do exhaustive and thourough research. All you think you need is "good enough" research because your position is the true position anyway.

Similarly, it does not matter if you stretch the truth during a debate because you know it is the truth. Any rhetorical trick you can pull is OK. For example, colesakick equated evolution with the study of Cydonia because it is convenient for him to do so. By doing this he equated evolution with pseudoscience which is patently false. But you don't seem to mind his offhand dismissal of YOUR position (that is, he is saying that the study of Cydonian geometry is a pseudoscience) because he is not your opponent in the debate.

By depending on argument and not substance, you compromise the integrity of your position and yourself. Not only does this make you look bad but it also diminishes the force of the argument that you strive to make for your "truth".

Edited by ag30476 (01/25/06 05:06 PM)

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telfrow
solar system
01/25/06 03:05 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

There's no need to use that terminology, AG. Do us all a favor and edit the post.

------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

Edited by telfrow (01/25/06 03:06 PM)

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Yevaud
galaxy
01/25/06 03:11 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

I don't know, Tel. Poor form, yes, but ag is attacking the method and not the individual. IMO.

Although...it would be better if words are not exchanged.

Code written to delay, impede, harrass, or otherwise annoy: Malice.
Code written with holes and bugs in it: Incompetence.
Code that has both written into it: Microsoft

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telfrow
solar system
01/25/06 03:29 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

'Twas my point, Yevaud. There's no need to use inflamatory terminology.

------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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Maxtheknife
star
01/25/06 04:00 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Can't make heads or tails out of it anyway.

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ag30476
atom
01/25/06 10:56 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

No wonder you thanked colesakick for his post then.

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bobw
planet
01/26/06 06:02 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: harmonicaman][link to this post]  

In defense of poor Lowell, I read an article in an old issue of Astronomy which said he was probably seeing the magnified reflection of the blood vessels in his own eye. They were always there and always the same. Lowell was an excellent observer.

Click for SDC Folding Team stats.

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CalliArcaleModerator
Time Lady
01/26/06 09:29 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: colesakick][link to this post]  

In reply to:

Either the description of science is broad enough to include evolution theory AND Maxtheknife’s similar use of logical positivisms or real science is too narrow to permit either, your call.




It is not what one believes which makes an argument scientific. It is the way in which one pursues it which makes it scientific. That is what both you and Max are failing to understand.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh
-------------------------------------------------------------

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Maxtheknife
star
01/26/06 11:59 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: CalliArcale][link to this post]  

Spare me, Calli.

If you're going to disparage my methods, please be specific.

Don't forget to read the chronology of the Martian Anomaly Research efforts again. I know what a selective memory you have.

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Maxtheknife
star
01/26/06 12:08 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

This is a link to one of Yevaud's posts. http://uplink.space.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=suggestions&Number=432638&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1

A very revealing post indeed. Maybe what y'all are really trying to say isn't "anything but artificial" after all. Rather, "Some things are better left alone."

Is that it? Is that really what you all are trying to say?

Go ahead and say it then and stop trying to dictate what is and isn't science. The rules have been posted several times over the past couple of days. They're unambiguous.... just like my efforts and results.

Cydonia is in fact artificial. Get over it and let us all get on with it!

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Yevaud
galaxy
01/26/06 12:13 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

No, what that was trying to say was be careful you don't incorrectly convince yourself of the truth of something, and then proceed to go haring off down a fruitless line of reasoning.

Cydonia is in fact artificial. Get over it and let us all get on with it!

And that's where you have made your fundamental error. You have zero evidence for it, save a curious-looking piece of landform. You then convinced yourself of the correctness of that viewpoint, never questioned it, and took off running.

Code written to delay, impede, harrass, or otherwise annoy: Malice.
Code written with holes and bugs in it: Incompetence.
Code that has both written into it: Microsoft

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Maxtheknife
star
01/26/06 12:33 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Zero.... yeah, right.

Do youself a favor. When you say 'bye'.... mean it.

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Yevaud
galaxy
01/26/06 12:51 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

What part of "Public Message Board" don't you understand?

And since you appear to have just used me and my commentary to "back up" your incredibly non-scientific methodology, I have a perfect right to respond.

I might add, you of course took me out of context to do so. How...intellectually honest.

Code written to delay, impede, harrass, or otherwise annoy: Malice.
Code written with holes and bugs in it: Incompetence.
Code that has both written into it: Microsoft

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Maxtheknife
star
01/26/06 01:03 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

By all means then, Yevaud. Keep diggin that hole for yourself.

You keep saying 'non scientific' but you've yet to back it up with any actual work of your own.

Wanna talk about Plait's pseudo science some more?

Want to compare my work to Plait's lack of work ?

Let's rock 'n roll then.... It'll be fun.... for me anyway.

And I took nothing out of context. I'm pretty sure you meant exactly what you said.

What do you say, Calli? Some things better left alone?


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Yevaud
galaxy
01/26/06 01:06 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

"Diggin that hole..."

And who's thread is now in purdah? That should tell you everything you need to know.

Not that you'll either see it or believe it.

Btw, Phil Plait is a degreed PhD in Astronomy. You run a warehouse. Capiche?

Code written to delay, impede, harrass, or otherwise annoy: Malice.
Code written with holes and bugs in it: Incompetence.
Code that has both written into it: Microsoft

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Maxtheknife
star
01/26/06 01:12 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

No, a little more than just a 'warehouse'. Capiche?

Who's that my dad's shaking hands with on my home page? Hmmm. I wonder what he's getting recognition for....

Warehouse.... don't think so. Little more complicated than that.

Nice attempt at attacking my credibility though. You'll have to do a little better if you want to succeed.

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Yevaud
galaxy
01/26/06 01:17 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I see. So you feel free to attack Plait's credibility - and he did the hard work to ge where he is, you did not - but responding directly to you is bad.

Next: you are not your dad. So what? I have met several notably famous people in my life. Does that somehow gain me instant credibility? I think not. Apparently you do though.

And please stop being so obtuse. You know exactly why I made the warehouse reference. Owning and/or running one does not gain you automatic scientific expertise.

Lastly, I don't have to "attack your credibility." As I'd said, merely seeing where your thread has ended up should tell you all you need to know. And why.

Code written to delay, impede, harrass, or otherwise annoy: Malice.
Code written with holes and bugs in it: Incompetence.
Code that has both written into it: Microsoft

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Maxtheknife
star
01/26/06 01:17 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Here's that post again, Yevaud. You know... the one that has gone uncontested since I posted it about a year ago. http://uplink.space.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=sciastro&Number=181905&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1

Compare and contrast for us my work on Cydonia VS Plait's work on Cydonia.

Talk is cheap. Work wins every time.

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Maxtheknife
star
01/26/06 01:18 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Hard work on Cydonia???? Are you mad??? hard?

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Yevaud
galaxy
01/26/06 01:20 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I don't believe it has been uncontested at all. You merely have to read back in this thread alone, and countless others. However, if you refuse to accept the sensible critism whatsoever, then sure, believe that you are "uncontested."

Believe what you will. Because you will anyways...

Code written to delay, impede, harrass, or otherwise annoy: Malice.
Code written with holes and bugs in it: Incompetence.
Code that has both written into it: Microsoft

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jatslo
solar system
01/26/06 01:29 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Max - Yevaud shot both feet off 10,000 posts ago clear to his kneecaps, and it only gets worse from there. If I were you, I would just ignore his hostile confrontational behavior that is almost totally unscientific in nature.

Anyone who would prey on your recently deceased father don't deserve any respect whatsoever!

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Yevaud
galaxy
01/26/06 01:32 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: jatslo][link to this post]  

1. Coming from one of the self-avowed "Kings" of non-science here, I will disregard that pointless statement.

2. I didn't bring him up - Max did. Or have you now forgotten how to read?

Code written to delay, impede, harrass, or otherwise annoy: Malice.
Code written with holes and bugs in it: Incompetence.
Code that has both written into it: Microsoft

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Yevaud
galaxy
01/26/06 01:37 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Let me see if I get this right: Hoagland took some images, said "this IS alien," then developed lines angles, and relationships between a number of them, cherry-picking them for their "fit" to his idea. You consider that "work."

Plait points out the errors, and you say it *isn't* work.

Ok..........riiiiggghhhhttttt.......

You know what they call a scientist who picks his data to fit his hypothesis, not the other way around?

UNEMPLOYED.

Code written to delay, impede, harrass, or otherwise annoy: Malice.
Code written with holes and bugs in it: Incompetence.
Code that has both written into it: Microsoft

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Maxtheknife
star
01/26/06 01:46 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: jatslo][link to this post]  

Hi Jatslo. Yeah, you're right. I let myself get sucked in.

Thanks for helping me out.

Nuff said for one day.

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CalliArcaleModerator
Time Lady
01/26/06 01:49 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

In reply to:

Compare and contrast for us my work on Cydonia VS Plait's work on Cydonia.




Why bother? Can't yours be looked at on its own? For one thing, what you've done and what Plait's done are two different animals. Plait produced an extensive criticism of Hoagland's method. You attempted to test the possibility that Cydonia is artificial. These are not really comparable, and you should realize this. Heck, it would be your best counterargument if you realized what constituted a scientific argument and what didn't. But you don't.

It's rather interesting you'd accuse me and others of not specifying where you've been unscientific. We've done so, many times. But you are apparently either choosing to ignore that, unable to understand it, or are so blinded by your own pride in your Cydonia work that you cannot hear such criticisms.

You claim you've got a scientific standard for your studies of Cydonia, but you refuse to share it -- even when given the perfect opportunity to do so, and in the forum where you wanted to talk about it. Why should I trust you that you've applied your lines correctly, when really all I've got is your say-so that this is the right place to put them? I don't know how you're positioning them. I don't know what standards you use to decide what is the correct line for the edges of the D&M Pyramid, or to join up various features within Cydonia like an enormous connect-the-dots. Therefore, I cannot judge them and thus cannot make any conclusions about the validity of your position.

That is what isn't scientific about your methods, Maxtheknife.

Understand that, or don't. It's up to you. I'm not sure there's much point carrying on this conversation anymore, but frankly, if you don't at least try to apply standards to your work, you're not going to convince me of your position.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh
-------------------------------------------------------------

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telfrow
solar system
01/26/06 01:49 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Wanna talk about Plait's pseudo science some more?

Want to compare my work to Plait's lack of work ?


Personally, no. But you can post it here and talk to him about it directly.


------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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Maxtheknife
star
01/26/06 02:09 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: CalliArcale][link to this post]  

Calli, I have shared it, step by step. You refuse to see it or maybe you just can't remember seeing it. Selective memory you have. You determine the standards if you think you can do it better and more accurately.

Answer my earlier question.

Some things better left alone? Is that how you really feel? Seems rather obvious to me.

And the "why bother to compare" statement and following paragraph.... cop out!

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Maxtheknife
star
01/26/06 02:10 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

lolol, Telf, I ain't goin there any more than your going to TEM's forum.

If you guys can't defend him here anyway.... again.... cop outs!

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Yevaud
galaxy
01/26/06 02:11 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Cop Out

Such as this pithy opinion you made on the KeithLaney forum?

Remember that moron Phil Plait's argument refuting RCH's measurments?

"If he's off by even one degree, this throws off everything".

My work blows this stupid argument out of the water.


Code written to delay, impede, harrass, or otherwise annoy: Malice.
Code written with holes and bugs in it: Incompetence.
Code that has both written into it: Microsoft

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Maxtheknife
star
01/26/06 02:12 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

DOH! Now nuff said for one day!

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Maxtheknife
star
01/26/06 02:12 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Nope. Not opinion.... measured fact.

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telfrow
solar system
01/26/06 02:21 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I won't go to the TEM forum because of the monthly charge. And I refuse I underwrite RCH in any way, shape or form. We discussed that before. Now, if the site ever becomes a free venue, I'd be glad to post there. And, as has been said many times before, he's free to post here.

BAUT is a free forum. No cost involved. And you can speak directly to Plait.

Just a thought: Phil does post here once in a while. And some of the posters here also post at BAUT. Maybe they can e-mail him and ask him to respond to you here since you won't take the work to him.

As for the last comment, it's not going to work this time around Max. Sorry.

------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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Maxtheknife
star
01/31/06 09:11 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

The Expanded Tetrahedral Geometry of Cydonia

13"x19" poster version:
http://www.maxtheknife.com/IntendedforMeasurement.htm

Complete Mosaic 8MB version:
http://www.maxtheknife.com/images/testillustcs.html

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vogon13
cluster
01/31/06 09:39 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

All that work, and you never bothered to line up the lines correctly on the 'pyramid'. Enlarged this much, it really emphasizes the error.

BTW, the camera on the space craft was not directly overhead the center of your picture when the picture was taken, so the photo is distorted and you didn't allow for that.

I think it is called rectification.


Additionally, don't let crazyeddie see it, all the colored lines makes the diagram look like some sort of Martian Gay Pride Flag thing.



#1 in my heart, #2 in my depends.

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bonzelite
star
02/01/06 03:12 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: vogon13][link to this post]  

i've lurked in this thread and i still contend that unless and until there is penetrative radar reconaissance --the best additional data acquisition we can hope for at this point as never in our lifetimes will they create a Cydonia landing mission and archaeological dig-- i maintain that further evidence for artificiality cannot at all be in any measure rendered conclusive from solely ground-based observation in this case. further evidence of inner artificial construction, as in the pyramids in Egypt and elsewhere, must be obtained in order to further promote the premise of artificiality.

there is currently no rover or radar telemetry from the actual ground and subsurface, of surrounding environs, to make any case yet completely believable for Cydonia being the ruins of a past intelligence presence.

indeed, it is important to think out of the box, for better or worse. but there is a good amount to be said, too, for heeding the actual box and what it has to offer to maintain a balanced assessment. the structures at Cydonia could as well be naturally created structures from equally as mysterious and heretofore unknown geologic processes on mars that we presently barely understand.

i would love for Cydonia to be artificial. that would be amazing. and i would equally love to see more data obtained from different means and tools.

in-n-out burger

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Maxtheknife
star
02/01/06 11:28 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: vogon13][link to this post]  

Yevaud on orthorectification and measuring...

I'd just like to state (I'm fairly certain that Jon will agree with this - he uses GIS also) that "Orthorectification" isn't a magic bullet.

It may slightly - slightly - realign terrain features by placing them into the appropriate relationship, but I really don't think it's going to suddenly correct those discrepancies in angle or relationship.


http://uplink.space.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=seti&Number=252838&page=7&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&vc=1


Telfrow on the same subject: I’ve always agreed with you and Jon…it (orthorectification) wouldn’t make that much difference.

http://uplink.space.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=seti&Number=253859&page=7&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&vc=1

And finally, Yevaud says: Time for the little bird of Orthorectification to leave the nest, and fly away...

http://uplink.space.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=seti&Number=254090&page=7&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&vc=1

And in case you're still concerned about it. I'm pretty sure the image I've used in this link is orthorectified. http://www.maxtheknife.com/How%20and%20why.htm

The image used was taken from here: http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/extended_may2001/face/

Bonz... the case for naturality, for any reasonable and intelligent person, is no longer tenable.

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ag30476
dust
02/01/06 12:32 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Max I can't believe you missed the hexagon at Cydonia. It's all the way at the bottom left of your pic.

Notice how it is perfectly aligned to the red line coming from the pyramid and the dashed white line (33.3!).

And I did this in only a couple of minutes with MS Paint.


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Maxtheknife
star
02/01/06 02:57 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

Like I said... No longer tenable.

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ag30476
dust
02/01/06 03:18 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

So you agree the great haxagon is part of the Cydonia complex?

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nifty
planet
02/01/06 04:00 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

Now all you have to do is create mirror images along the intersection lines and see if there are any aliens hiding in that hexagon

If you can find aliens in the mirror images then you hit cydonia pay dirt, and you didn't have to use any science either, cool eh.

Rat Finks keep thier forked tongues behind thier teeth

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ag30476
dust
02/01/06 04:14 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

Well I'm waiting for Maxtheknife's response. If the "Great Hexagon" is part of the Cydonia complex than I have hit pay dirt. Don't you think Art Bell would pay to interview me on my new discovery?

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nifty
planet
02/01/06 04:22 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

Don't hold your breath he never responsed to my version of the D&M Pyramid and I did it exactly as he did his. Take a picture draw some lines and voila Alien Central.

Rat Finks keep thier forked tongues behind thier teeth

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ag30476
dust
02/01/06 04:48 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

Why did Maxtheknife not respond to you? Is he choosing what to respond to like those close-minded NASA scientists?

Besides, I'm making a claim in his favor, not against him.

Max should be able to tell us whether the GREAT HEXAGON is part of the Cydonia complex.

So what is the answer Max?

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Maxtheknife
star
02/01/06 05:28 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

You two are so cute together

In response to Ag...

http://www.maxtheknife.com/020106/index.htm

http://www.maxtheknife.com/MTK%20Gallery%20Page.htm

Edited by Maxtheknife (02/01/06 08:21 PM)

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/01/06 06:12 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Responses:

The first is that what you have from Malin is not yet registered for altitude. In short, not "Orthorectified." It's a "raw" image.

The second is what you have done in the images is not altitude registration either. It's arbitrary, subjective, and misleading. Beyond amateurish.

Next is that the resolution of THEMIS is 1000m/pixel for IR and 19m/pixel for the optical bands. That's not terribly great resolution for what you seem to believe you "see."

Next, there is a great deal of dust, both wind-driven and suspended in the Martian atmosphere, so the resolution, the clarity with which you believe is here isn't. Such things as optical depth and various scattering mechanisms will come, go, and vary at will.

Cease attempting to utilize me as some sort of positive reference for your Cydonia/FOM ideas. I was not then, nor am I now, in any accord with them. And you do yourself and your case a vast disservice for attempting to manipulate what I said into agreement with you.

Code written to delay, impede, harrass, or otherwise annoy: Malice.
Code written with holes and bugs in it: Incompetence.
Code that has both written into it: Microsoft

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ag30476
dust
02/01/06 06:17 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

> http://www.maxtheknife.com/020106/index.htm
2/1/2006???? Is it just coincidence that you posted that on the same day that I announced my discovery of the GREAT CYDONIAN HEXAGON?

> http://www.maxtheknife.com/MTK%20Gallery%20Page.htm
You write:

In reply to:


Posted 02/01/06:
I can’t believe it has been this long since I posted anything…

Here is a mini slide show of N/S mirrors:

2/01/06 (N/S)

I see lots of interesting splits for this feature. I’ll work on a few more soon.



and then post an image of the RUINS OF THE GREAT CYDONIAN HEXAGON.

I'm not angry at you Max. I'm just glad that I could help the advancement of "science".

Edited by ag30476 (02/01/06 06:19 PM)

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ag30476
dust
02/01/06 06:33 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

> If you can find aliens in the mirror images then you hit > cydonia pay dirt...
Geez, I thought you were kidding and didn't follow the link at first. But he's off the chart there.

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ag30476
dust
02/01/06 07:14 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

> Take a picture draw some lines and voila Alien
> Central.
You weren't kidding about this either. From http://www.enterprisemission.com/ir_analysis.html

In reply to:

One new "transport tunnel" emerges from the base of a "building" we are now calling the "train station" in "downtown Cydonia"



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ag30476
dust
02/01/06 07:14 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

> Take a picture draw some lines and voila Alien
> Central.
You weren't kidding about this either. From http://www.enterprisemission.com/ir_analysis.html

In reply to:

One new "transport tunnel" emerges from the base of a "building" we are now calling the "train station" in "downtown Cydonia"



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Maxtheknife
star
02/01/06 08:20 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Lol... I didn't have to manipulate one single word.

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/01/06 08:23 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

No, just took it out of context, in a scienctific area in which you effectively know squat.

Don't try specious rhetoric-chopping on me, Buddy.

Code written to delay, impede, harrass, or otherwise annoy: Malice.
Code written with holes and bugs in it: Incompetence.
Code that has both written into it: Microsoft

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Maxtheknife
star
02/01/06 08:24 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

Btw, Ag... You traced an octagon, not a hexagon.

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Maxtheknife
star
02/01/06 08:25 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

No, not out of context at all.

No longer tenable.

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/01/06 08:42 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

You have no idea what you're talking about. Drawing a couple of lines on a raw image isn't Orthorectification or any such thing.

You grasped at the term once you heard it somewhere, and you now use it frequently - but by virtue of attempting to do this by drawing a few lines onto an image, you show you have no clue.

By the way, Myself, Jon, and Saiph didn't correct you on it either, out of politeness - otherwise, we'd have been correcting your terminology every six posts. The term is rarely, if ever, used in the fields of GIS or Remote Sensing. Where you heard it, I have no idea. Probably RCH.

And no, those images you use are "raw." Didn't I just tell you that, or are you typing to fast to read previous posts?

So cease using me as a reference. You are warping what I said, what I meant, and using it way out of context.

Code written to delay, impede, harrass, or otherwise annoy: Malice.
Code written with holes and bugs in it: Incompetence.
Code that has both written into it: Microsoft

Edited by Yevaud (02/01/06 08:56 PM)

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Maxtheknife
star
02/01/06 09:04 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: nifty][link to this post]  

Nifty,

Keep at the hard work. I did put your image into photoshop to see what you actually came up with. You're close... but I'm sure you can do better if you really cared to give it an honest try.

Start with Gary's mosaic... http://www.martianrevelation.com/CydoniaArtscapeExampleSmall2.png

There are several ways to find N/S/E/W. I talk briefly about those ways somewhere on my December Gallery page. The most accurate and reliable way, however, is to use the RCH/Torun model. Those anchor points being the sightline through the 'city square' and 'through the eyes' of the FOM, or more accurately, tangent to the right side of the 'teardrop'.

Construct a perfect 60 degree angle. Paste and rotate it into position utilizing those sightlines on the mosaic and you will have found the apex of the D&M Pyramid. (there are cleaner ways to do it, but this is the simplest way to explain it)

If you rotate the line that's now passing through the FOM -10.5 degrees... you've found a perfect north line. Rotate that line 90 degrees and you've found N Lat line: 40.868 aka, e/pi.

If you or Ag have any intelligent questions or concerns, I'll do my best to answer them. I hope this helps you get started.

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Maxtheknife
star
02/01/06 09:11 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Heheh... out of politeness..... You crack me up, buddy.

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/01/06 09:14 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Whatever you say, Mister I got all of my "profound" science knowledge from the RCH website.

I busted my ass in school to learn the science that I know. Did you?

Yeah...that's what I thought. No.

"Lazy, Armchair Science."

Code written to delay, impede, harrass, or otherwise annoy: Malice.
Code written with holes and bugs in it: Incompetence.
Code that has both written into it: Microsoft

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Maxtheknife
star
02/01/06 09:24 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

"I see your true colors shining through... And that's why I love you" -Cyndi Lauper

And yeah. I did well in school, thanks.

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jatslo
solar system
02/01/06 09:28 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I do well in school too, Maxtheknife; statistics are presently hurting my head.

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Maxtheknife
star
02/01/06 09:32 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: jatslo][link to this post]  

Hi Jatslo,

I never took statistics... Computer science hurt my head! I think it might have had something to do with the hot brunette sitting next to me!

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jatslo
solar system
02/01/06 09:38 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Well, I am no statistician, that is for sure, but I know a little. I had this hot blonde sitting next to me, and she had a tattoo on the small of her back. It was a nice looking tattoo too.

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Maxtheknife
star
02/01/06 09:49 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: jatslo][link to this post]  

Lmao!

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ag30476
dust
02/01/06 10:17 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

> Btw, Ag... You traced an octagon, not a hexagon.

Don't be silly. The inside is a hexagon.

Edited by ag30476 (02/01/06 10:23 PM)

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Pocket_Rocket
star
02/01/06 10:55 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Can anyone draw some lines showing directions to the Cydonia bar and grill?


Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" until you find a suitable rock.

My dyslexic girlfriend thinks I'm a god

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ag30476
rock
02/01/06 11:05 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Pocket_Rocket][link to this post]  

Well here's a map of "downtown Cydonia"
http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/IR/CYDONIA-CAIRO-COMPARISON.jpg

I'm sure you can find a Starbucks.

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bonzelite
star
02/02/06 11:39 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

again, i'd like more data. i want inner structural imaging. a scientist needs exhaustive data from myriad aspects of the premise, subject, or object. not only surface data. to stop only at the surface geometry is incomplete. show me the money.

i want radar imaging of subterranean environs of many locales, not only Cydonia. indeed, much of Noachian and Hesperian Mars is buried beneath millions of cubic tons of sand. there is perhaps an entire world under the surface that may totally shock and baffle us, as well as answer questions.

for example, what if some of the structures at Cydonia are only the tips of a greater buried structure? what if the inner constructions of the forms are homogenous and without any discernable inner compartments or chambers or sections? then what?

the striking surface geometry warrants, beckons, further probing. but i think it is not an end unto itself. we need telemetry from the ground. the structures must look awesome from the surface. and they are very compelling from orbit. so let's go down there and dig around and discover what they are composed of. they've gotten our attention. so we need more information. we don't know what they are or what they are not. at least not yet.


in-n-out burger

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/03/06 12:16 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

we don't know what they are or what they are not. at least not yet.

And isn't that the crux of this argument. Max believes it's already a proven fact. Many of us do not.

"Well, watch out where the Huskies go, don't you eat that yellow snow..."

Frank Zappa

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bonzelite
star
02/03/06 03:06 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

there's just no way in hell this is a proven argument or "slam dunk." it cannot be. until science is conducted on the ground and the subsurface is explored farther in some way, either with penetrating radar or manned expeditions underground in any tunnel networks or whatever that may lie there, we are left only with our imaginations, speculations, and conjectures. and with MRO's penetrating radar being rather shallow (only 33 ft max), we may not know anything for decades about Cydonian substructure.

i will not refute that the structures are compelling. that is pretty clear. they are mysterious and marvelous. and lots of things are this way. and until manned mars expeditions are semi-normal, which may be centuries away, we are merely left waiting.

i'm far more interested in subsurface data at this point than drawing lines everywhere:
http://www.marsnews.com/news/20021004-boerner2.html

in-n-out burger

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Maxtheknife
star
02/03/06 08:00 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

Sorry, but it is.... It can't be anything but artificial.

It's art... all of it.

Subsurface data.... irrelevant to AOC.

Edit... I'm not really sorry.... We tried to tell you...

Edited by Maxtheknife (02/03/06 08:03 AM)

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bonzelite
star
02/03/06 05:59 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

symmetry:


in-n-out burger


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Maxtheknife
star
02/10/06 08:30 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

New Feature Image here: http://themis.asu.edu/feature_arabiadunes

Measure here: http://www.maxtheknife.com/Symmeasure1.htm (~1 MB file)

Symmetry here: http://www.maxtheknife.com/Symmetry1.htm (~7 MB file)





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ag30476
rock
02/11/06 01:51 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Is it just me or does anyone else think the last two pictures are erotic?

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qso1
comet
02/11/06 02:08 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

I was close, I thought exotic LOL.

The last image is obviously mirrored.

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ag30476
rock
02/11/06 02:13 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

> The last image is obviously mirrored.
Well tha's Maxtheknife's shtick http://www.maxtheknife.com/Welcome%20to%20the%20Real%20Cydonia.htm

You know I just revisted the site and he does come up with pretty looking pics some times.

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qso1
comet
02/11/06 03:00 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

I agree, I saw some neat looking pics and while he uses mirroring as I call it, he also cuts and pastes sections to give the images the appearances of adorned heads or faces.

I posted some images that Max blew off a few pages back (Page 8 I think) in which I constructed what was intended to appear to be the remains of a city to make a point.

That point was, why do we not ever find something really obvious as depicted in my image.

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qso1
comet
02/11/06 03:01 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

Found the image on page 9.

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Maxtheknife
star
02/11/06 06:29 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

qso: he also cuts and pastes sections to give the images the appearances of adorned heads or faces.

Uh, no, I don't. You should try reading more. You might understand what's going on a little better.

qso: I posted some images that Max blew off a few

Sorry, didn't find anything worth commenting on. I still don't get the point you were trying to make.

Btw... you all have fun at home this weekend pretending to be honest skeptics. I'm off to Los Angeles until Tuesday. Haahahahahahaaaaahahaha

"In the shifting of the winds..."

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telfrow
solar system
02/11/06 06:34 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

...you all have fun at home this weekend pretending to be honest skeptics.

It's not going to work this time around, Max.

I'm off to Los Angeles until Tuesday.

The LA Hilton, I'll bet. Gee, I wonder what you'll be posting about next Wednesday...

------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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qso1
comet
02/12/06 01:47 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I'll have to read up on your method. But it is possible to use the method I described to accomplish similar results.

As for my earlier posting, seems a few others thought it was relevant but since it does not support what your claiming. Of course you do not see the relevance and it would do me no good to explain it to you.

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bonzelite
star
02/12/06 10:48 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

the nearly perfect natural symmetry of the image i posted is pretty obvious. the pyramid is really an arrowhead shape. the symmetry is nearly too perfect to seem created by "nature." even though i am as skeptical as anyone about it's artificiality. i will maintain that the area needs a ground mission to really dig in there and explore it.

the pyramid arrow-head structure is the most compelling image to me to suggest artifical construction.

in-n-out burger

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bonzelite
star
02/12/06 10:50 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

telfrow, you're in LA til tuesday? you at the Hilton?

in-n-out burger

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qso1
asteroid
02/13/06 01:13 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

i will maintain that the area needs a ground mission to really dig in there and explore it.

The above statement applies to this, Hoaglands face and lunar monoliths, and anything else one finds in images. We will have to send humans to Mars to prove once and for all that these supposed structures are in fact, artificial in nature. Problem is, it will be a long time before anyone gets to these areas, perhaps as much as two decades after the first footfalls on Mars. Assuming even that happens anytime soon.

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Mental_Avenger
solar system
02/13/06 01:38 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

We need to send in Big Al.

REALITY: What a concept!....................................><Ç((((Ç°>

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qso1
asteroid
02/13/06 05:09 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

Bonzelite:
the nearly perfect natural symmetry of the image i posted is pretty obvious. the pyramid is really an arrowhead shape. the symmetry is nearly too perfect to seem created by "nature." even though i am as skeptical as anyone about it's artificiality. i will maintain that the area needs a ground mission to really dig in there and explore it.

the pyramid arrow-head structure is the most compelling image to me to suggest artifical construction.

My response:
The image in question is a Viking image, am I right?

If so, the symmetry present in these images is partly caused by the computer imaging techniques in a process known as anti aliasing, the computer averages edges that it detects (For lack of better terminology). These are also not the highest resolutions available and one should sample several images of the same area under different lighting conditions.

I can also see the presence of Jpeg artifiacting indicative of this image being blown up. I only mention this because the jpeg artifacting blocks if you will, are probably at a scale larger than houses. The process used for Viking images was one known as "SPIT" and I forgot what the acronym means.

What would the Ayers rock feature at Alice Springs Australia look like from say, a satellite at Vikings image resolution and altitude?

Now, since I am not one to totally rule out the possibility these images represent something artificial, we are still left with having to conclude whether they are indeed artificial. Compelling as you say? Most certainly. Conclusive? Not without more data, preferrably data in the form of a manned mission investigating this area first hand. And I do realize a manned mission to some specific area would have to be justified on scientific merit. If microbiological life is discovered on the first or subsequent human missions. I suspect a mission to Cydonia will be approved because then, they may conclude there is enough scientific merit to justify investigating.

Back on page 8, I posted a comparison of Viking and Mars Global Surveyor images of the face on Mars. They are vastly different. One could even argue that while the MGS image shows little in the way of a face, it does show something rather compelling in the way of what was known as the shield on the face. That feature is still fairly prominent.

Is it proof of an ancient civilization on Mars? IMHO no. But I would want to investigate it to be 100% sure by sending a manned mission.

BTW, one reason I consider these types of images to be too vague as yet to conclude anything is because of an image I modified and posted on page 9. Since we will have to wait perhaps 50 years before a manned mission to Cydonia, why can't we find something from orbit that resembles what I posted? That would be the next best thing to having a robotic or human crew next to these formations.

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qso1
asteroid
02/13/06 05:15 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Mental_Avenger][link to this post]  

Who (Or what) is big Al?

Edited by qso1 (02/13/06 05:15 AM)

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telfrow
solar system
02/13/06 05:17 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

No, Max is. At the "Conscious Life Expo," I believe.

------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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bonzelite
star
02/13/06 04:30 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: qso1][link to this post]  


The image in question is a Viking image, am I right?

don't know.
If so, the symmetry present in these images is partly caused by the computer imaging techniques in a process known as anti aliasing, the computer averages edges that it detects (For lack of better terminology). These are also not the highest resolutions available and one should sample several images of the same area under different lighting conditions.

no. the pics are clear. they're showing you what is there. there is no light play or tricks or illusion-creating shadows here. what you see is what you get. you can have a resolution of 100X greater and you'd only see more detail of the symmetry. there is no optical abberation or illusion here. or poor resolution if from Viking. the resolution is actually excellent. you can make out fine detail on the surrounding terrain.
Compelling as you say? Most certainly. Conclusive? Not without more data, preferrably data in the form of a manned mission investigating this area first hand.
you're only repeating what i suggest. i'm not saying jack sh#534$%t is conclusive. nothing is conclusive until people hunker down there in the next century or so (which is probably when anyone will actually ever go there).

Back on page 8, I posted a comparison of Viking and Mars Global Surveyor images of the face on Mars. They are vastly different.

right. but the pyramid's structure is evident clearly. there is no deep shadowing illusion of a "face." you can take the pics of the pyramid at any time of day and make out the same linear and angular features in differing lighting conditions. the lighting in the image is rather flat anyway. there is no harsh relief or shadowy incompleteness to it.

believe me, i'm a skeptic of ET on mars. but i'm also not so closed to deny what i am seeing as symmetry or strong approximate symmetry at the pyramid as the arrowhead shape. it is rather striking and bizarre, and i find it difficult to imagine such a structure arising from a tectonic, volcanic, or otherwise geologic process. it may have. but looking at it makes me not fully believe in 100% geologic origin.

in some ways, the point is moot because nobody will actually put boots on the soil at Cydonia for at least another 100 or 200 more years anyway. so we will all be long dead. we will be lucky to see one mission to mars for a day or two with human activity on the surface before we are dead. and that will be a colossal undertaking, let alone human movement at will on the surface for extended missions to conduct exo-archaeology. that is nowhere near feasibility.

in-n-out burger

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ag30476
rock
02/13/06 07:26 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

> in some ways, the point is moot because nobody will
> actually put boots on the soil at Cydonia for at least
> another 100 or 200 more years anyway
I am afraid you might be right. But you can't really justify it. Mars is not teeming with the ruins of civilization (no matter what the Cydonia believers say).

But I think we might find some evidence of life-out-there in our lifetime. Who knows? SETI might find the LGO or some future Martian rover might stumble over a fossil. Of course, these are very remote possibilities.

Hopefully ESA's Darwin will be launched in 2015 as planned (now that NASA's TPF is cancelled). I think that's the best bet.

And hopefully, they'll find funding for a Europa mission (though life there too is a remote possibility).

Sigh...we just have to wait. But while we're waiting, let's have more picture Max!

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CalliArcaleModerator
Time Lady
02/14/06 10:33 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

In reply to:

believe me, i'm a skeptic of ET on mars. but i'm also not so closed to deny what i am seeing as symmetry or strong approximate symmetry at the pyramid as the arrowhead shape.




Well, one thing that I think is quite plainly clear about the D&M Pyramid is that it is quite remarkably beautiful. You're right that it is an interesting structure and it would be very interesting to find out how it developed.

I lean towards a natural origin for it, mainly because nature has so far always managed to amaze me with what it can produce. Things like Devil's Tower, or Ayers Rock. Amazing things. (Interestingly, of those two, the former is much better understood, but arguably weirder looking.) I find it unwise to underestimate what Nature can do, so I try to make a conscious effort not to.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh
-------------------------------------------------------------

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bonzelite
star
02/14/06 02:01 PM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: CalliArcale][link to this post]  

yeah, but the symmetry of the arrowhead shape pyramid layout is a bit beyond what i would consider to be 100% naturally occuring. that is what i am saying. it raises immediate concern. i'm not going to bat for ET at all costs, either. in 2234 when they actually visit there, we may know. but if it is ET or natural geology, it's all good. but a scientist would not reject ET just because it is currently considered to be science fiction. it may not be.

in-n-out burger

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Maxtheknife
star
02/15/06 11:06 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

Why do you keep saying that, Telfrow? What isn't going to 'work'?

Is it something you want to share with the rest of the newcomers to this year long discussion? It might help them understand and stop posting thoughtless contentions.

You once said to me, "You will not be able to convince me/us about AOC".

In light of what I've discovered and what RCH is about to reveal, are you going to openly admit that you are indeed bias and will never admit that the things brought out over the past year during our discussions are worth NASA's time and effort to investigate seriously and publicly?

Tell us where you stand, Telfrow. You're respected around here. I think we'd all like to know. If not, I surely do.

If you do care to comment, I believe you will prove one of my first comments during the Iapetus threads about conspiracy VS attitude and how yours contributes to the illusion of what is probably a much smaller conspiracy than is percieved.

This has nothing to do with your fear and loathing of RCH. It's about the data, measurment, and pure science that is at your feet.

What say you?

edit: Then again, you may surpise me with your comments. Stranger things have happend.

Edited by Maxtheknife (02/15/06 11:09 AM)

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Maxtheknife
star
02/15/06 11:07 AM
Re: Geometry at Cydonia new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

Bonzelite... You crack me up, man.... Stop dangling your toes in the pool and get in already!

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telfrow
solar system
02/15/06 11:43 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I've made my position on this, on other issues, clear on a number of occasions, in the "debate" threads, and in other threads across the SDC forums. I see no need to repeat myself.

------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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ag30476
rock
02/15/06 11:56 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

if we post enough

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ag30476
rock
02/15/06 11:56 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

the the thread

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ag30476
rock
02/15/06 11:56 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

will reach 600

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ag30476
rock
02/15/06 11:57 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

and be closed

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Maxtheknife
star
02/15/06 12:38 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

Well there's some new evidence for you to consider and comment on, isn't there...

Make make your position crystal clear.

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telfrow
solar system
02/15/06 02:13 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Not really.

And I don't repond well to demands.

------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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Maxtheknife
star
02/15/06 03:11 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

Not really? As in there isn't anything new to comment on?

Ok then,,,, please make your position crystal clear.

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Maxtheknife
star
02/15/06 04:39 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Hey.... I finally found an appropriate signature line...


The greater our knowledge increases the more our ignorance unfolds. -JFK

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Maxtheknife
star
02/15/06 04:43 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Decisions, decisions.... This one's even better. Just longer...

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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bonzelite
star
02/15/06 07:05 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Max, let's say i'm being cautiously optimistic, yet skeptical. there is a lot of stuff off the record that i never post about and keep privately. for example, the coveted author and inventor Arthur C. Clarke is convinced there is life on mars past or present. yet nobody would assume right away he of all people is a fringe whacko, now would they?

in-n-out burger

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ag30476
rock
02/15/06 07:11 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

Every post gets us closer to ending this thread...Clarke (bless his soul) is convinced of the "glass snakes" or is it "glass tubes" on Mars. Of curse these are just linear features with sand dunes in them.

This does not prove Clarke is wacko or fringe only that the not-so-solid-ideas creep into popular culture. What is it half the people in the US believe in ET UFO's?

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Maxtheknife
star
02/15/06 07:49 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

ag: Every post gets us closer to ending this thread...

And beginning Pt 2.... Maybe by that time the admins & mods will wise up and move them both into SS&A where they belong.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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bonzelite
star
02/16/06 01:08 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke
Clarke's Three Laws

When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
Source: the essay Hazards of Prophecy: The Failure of Imagination, in his book Profiles of the Future (1962); This statement is often referred to as "Clarke's First Law"

The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
Source: the essay Hazards of Prophecy: The Failure of Imagination, in his book Profiles of the Future (1962); This statement is often referred to as "Clarke's Second Law"

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Source: Profiles of the Future (revised edition 1973); The statement is often referred to as "Clarke's Third Law"





in-n-out burger

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bonzelite
star
02/16/06 01:10 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: ag30476][link to this post]  

Of curse these are just linear features with sand dunes in them.

so you've confirmed this to be incontrovertibly true? where is your data on what they really are?

in-n-out burger

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qso1
asteroid
02/16/06 01:36 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

bonzelite:
Max, let's say i'm being cautiously optimistic, yet skeptical. there is a lot of stuff off the record that i never post about and keep privately. for example, the coveted author and inventor Arthur C. Clarke is convinced there is life on mars past or present. yet nobody would assume right away he of all people is a fringe whacko, now would they?

My response:
I agree, I keep an open mind about the possibility of life on Mars. Even that maybe these visual artifacts could be artificial in nature. My earlier comments on Viking images were that the resolution is not as high as newer spacecraft such as MGS. This was clearly illustrated in the face comparisons. I also mentioned that though the MGS image no longer looked very face like, it still had some interesting symmetry of its own. And as you stated in your posts. Only human missions can prove it once and for all and thats probably nearly half century away at best unless something extremelly compelling shows up in orbiting spacecraft images. Or a robotic rover stumbles onto something.

As for Clarke, hes a distinguished Author etc. But still a person just like any of us. A lot of writing from posters here shows the potential for some of you to attain his status through your writing. A few of you may well be published writers. There is a big difference in the way we percieve people based on their fame/status. Me personally, while I recognize the importance of someone like Clarke, it does not necessarily mean I think hes sane or a whacko. I don't personally know him. Michael Jackson was considered a musical genius and still is. Not many people would have questioned him in the mid eighties but look what happened.

As for Mars, from what I know of it. It appears this world never reached a point where it could sustain advanced life forms, much less human or intelligent alien. This based on data we have so far on both Mars and what current science considers to be the envelope favorable for advanced life to develop in (The right location from a star, water, etc).

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TheShadowModerator
The Shadow Knows
02/16/06 01:44 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Maybe by that time the admins & mods will wise up and move them both into SS&A where they belong.

Not on my watch.


Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men, the Shadow knows.

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Mental_Avenger
solar system
02/16/06 02:01 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

Who (Or what) is big Al?

Big Al Was a concept I came up with in our discussions about a mission to Mars. Big Al is an SUV sized autonomous rover that can travel long distances at relatively high speed, and perform many complex tests onboard. Big Al would have a core sampling tool capable of removing cores from 20 feet down or more. Instead of traveling at less than 1mph, Big Al could travel cross country on flat terrain at 30-40mph. Using nuclear power and having sufficient capacity for extensive testing, Big Al could do well in a few days what current rovers do poorly in a year. 3 or 4 Big Al rovers on Mars would answer all the questions in a very short time. When we finally go to Mars, they would still be very useful on a daily basis.

If you are going to all the trouble of sending a rover to Mars, you might as well do it right.


REALITY: What a concept!....................................><Ç((((Ç°>

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bonzelite
star
02/16/06 02:03 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

qso1, we have a good dialogue and now let us continue in this way. i will cite what you just said, thusly:

As for Mars, from what I know of it. It appears this world never reached a point where it could sustain advanced life forms, much less human or intelligent alien. This based on data we have so far on both Mars and what current science considers to be the envelope favorable for advanced life to develop in (The right location from a star, water, etc).


and i will offer, as i will now venture into the "whacko" territory fully and accept my lot in life ---> please consider that this possible lifeform is not endemic to mars.

take that premise and hold it in your palm and envision the impossible. free your imagination and you may find truth there.

in-n-out burger

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qso1
asteroid
02/16/06 02:13 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Mental_Avenger][link to this post]  

Thanks, now I know what big Al is, sounds pretty cool to me.

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qso1
asteroid
02/16/06 02:14 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

bonzelite:
and i will offer, as i will now venture into the "whacko" territory fully and accept my lot in life ---> please consider that this possible lifeform is not endemic to mars.

My response:
Quite possible. I also might point out I personally don't consider it whacko territory or whacko anything. I just see it as something to vague to call proof, as you have. I see it as justification for possible manned missions to investigate. Ideally a situation where both conventional science goals and checking out these phenomenon could be accomodated.

Edited by qso1 (02/16/06 02:16 AM)

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bonzelite
star
02/16/06 03:40 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: qso1][link to this post]  

qso1, ditto.

there is no conclusive proof. of course. and i will offer the "but": but ----> there are extremely compelling structures at Cydonia and in many other locales throughout Mars. i'd take what we are seeing as a mere surface glimpse into another realm. and i would bet it is far more bizarre than anything presently discussed.

in-n-out burger

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qso1
asteroid
02/16/06 05:41 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

I certainly agree they are compelling but I'm just not quite to the point where I think they are anything more than natural formations that look artificial. If they are anything more, prepare for NASA to be awash in money if there is any logic to how such a discovery should progress.

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 09:20 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: TheShadow][link to this post]  

Right... The Shadow... The mod who can't specifically spell out the requisites a thread must exhibit in order to hold a spot in SS&A.

You still haven't offered any specific reason why this thread is down here.

You're a champion of a position that is no longer tenable, Shadow.

Don't feel bad, though. You aren't the only mod who hasn't stepped up.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 09:26 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

Tell me Bonze.... Where do you think this thread belongs and why?

edit: You might consider answering here if you're inclined to answer at all: http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=suggestions&Number=429512&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

Edited by Maxtheknife (02/16/06 09:28 AM)

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/16/06 09:33 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

The ability to reason out a hypothesis using the scientific method and accepted scientific means.

Causal relationships and shape "looks like" doesn't cut it.

Brutal

Dave Lister

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ag30476
rock
02/16/06 10:25 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

> Maybe by that time the admins & mods will wise up
> and move them both into SS&A where they belong.
And I want to win the Lottery.

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ag30476
rock
02/16/06 10:26 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

> Any sufficiently advanced technology is
> indistinguishable from magic.
And any sufficiently ubiquitous magic is indistinguishable from technology - Hong Ooi's law.

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ag30476
rock
02/16/06 10:30 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

> so you've confirmed this to be incontrovertibly true?
To my own satisfaction, yes. Your opinion may differ.

> where is your data on what they really are?
I'll look up both the Mars pics and Earth pics which are similar. It doens't take long to see that the "ribs" ARE really just sand dunes.

Will post soon...

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 11:15 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Yeah, we know all about your 'methods', Yevaud. Attack anything that doesn't suit your biased belief.

Want to get specific about what doesn't look like what? So many examples to choose from, aren't there?

How are you all going to keep this out of SS&A in the long run, I wonder... You're already having a tough time and the public doesn't even know about it.... yet.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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telfrow
solar system
02/16/06 11:47 AM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

How are you all going to keep this out of SS&A in the long run, I wonder...

See Calli's explanation concerning what goes where

------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/16/06 12:03 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

biased belief.

Har har har.

Brutal

Dave Lister

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 12:03 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: telfrow][link to this post]  

She didn't mention any specific criteria for what is to be considered Science Vs Phenomena.

By definition, my thread belongs in SS&A.

I may be willing to entertain the idea that my thread belongs in SETI, but somebody better lay out a point by point case citing specific examples of where my work does or does not follow the criteria.

So far, none of you have been able to do that.

So far, no one has even bothered to spell out the criteria.

Politics do not belong in honest scientific inquiry. You of all people should know that, Telfrow. Its politics that keeps this thread here. Its just that simple. Politics can change, but it usually requires a little effort and someone to take a stand.

This is only going to get worse for those who oppose the idea.

I hope SDC can find the courage to do the right thing.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/16/06 12:05 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

She didn't mention any specific criteria for what is to be considered Science Vs Phenomena.

The ability to reason out a hypothesis using the scientific method and accepted scientific means.

Causal relationships and shape "looks like" doesn't cut it.


Brutal

Dave Lister

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 12:07 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Yeah, I heard you the first time. You haven't substantiated your position.

Where's that geometry work regarding the furniture in your living room?

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/16/06 12:10 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Yeah, I heard you the first time.

No, clearly you've done anything but.

You haven't substantiated your position.

Arrogant sophistry. Read this entire thread, and all of the times multiple people told you where you went wrong.

Brutal

Dave Lister

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 12:14 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

What about what I did right? Like finding a true north line?

Have you nothing positive to say?

Attack, attack, attack. That's all you know.

What is it you think I do again? Run a warehouse?

Have you been raiding the meds in that VA hospital again?

See? I can attack too, but I'd rather not. So no, I don't think you've been raiding meds. I think you're simply afraid of the implications and react the only way you've ever known.

That can change, but some fundamental things will need to change here at SDC.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/16/06 12:16 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

some fundamental things will need to change here at SDC.

Boy, are *you* in for a major surprise...

Brutal

Dave Lister

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 12:17 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Heheh, can't wait.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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telfrow
solar system
02/16/06 12:23 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Boy, are *you* in for a major surprise...



------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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telfrow
solar system
02/16/06 12:26 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

This is only going to get worse for those who oppose the idea.

A threat? A warning? How cryptic.


------------
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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jatslo
solar system
02/16/06 12:44 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Yevaud said, "... Boy, are *you* in for a major surprise ..." ... And what exactly are you implying? Are you referring to the release of data that "does not" support the artificial construct hypothesis in a general sense, because if you are, that would be a good start, since you have failed miserably to provide this smoking gun time and time again. In fact, you keep singing the same old tune.

Please elaborate "... Boy, are *you* in for a major surprise ..." Maybe you would also like to mention that Jatslo, is in for the same surprise while you are at it.

Edited by jatslo (02/16/06 12:48 PM)

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CalliArcaleModerator
Time Lady
02/16/06 12:49 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

In reply to:

She didn't mention any specific criteria for what is to be considered Science Vs Phenomena.




I have explained, but obviously not in a way that worked for you. So I'll try again.

To belong in one of the science fora, a thread has to be willing to acknowledge scientific principles. You can certainly start with "it looks like thus-and-such" and a bunch of line drawings, but you have to be willing to go beyond that at some point. You also have to be willing to acknowledge the weaknesses of your arguments and methods.

You refuse to go beyond your line drawings. You refuse to acknowledge the arbitrary nature of the lines you've laid down. You evidently think that "experimental error" applies only to the measurement of angles between these arbitrary lines, and not to the lines themselves. You make tantalizing allusions to some incontrovertible outside proof but refuse to actually provide any hints as to what that proof is, to say nothing of the proof itself. When challenged on any of these points, you either ignore the challenges, respond with misdirection, or become hostile. You certainly are not willing to acknowledge any genuine weaknesses in your methods.

In scientific terms, this means you are biased greatly in favor of yourself being right. You will not even entertain the possibility that there might be a truth other than yours. What makes this most irritating is that you accuse everyone who dares disagree with you of being biased and closed to the alternatives. Yet you yourself will not even entertain alternatives. The real process of science does not interest you; you are merely interested in promoting what you have already decided to be the truth, not in searching for truth.

That is what keeps this thread in Phenomena.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh
-------------------------------------------------------------

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jatslo
solar system
02/16/06 01:31 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Yevaud said, "... The ability to reason out a hypothesis using the scientific method and accepted scientific means. Causal relationships and shape "looks like" doesn't cut it. ... " Hardy, har, har BUDDY! You say that as if you have one, which is not the case, and likely never will be. Time and time again you fully demonstrate that *YOU* do not have the foggiest clue about what constitutes a hypothesis.

A hypothesis is just an idea, and that is all it is. Sure an un-testable hypothesis, or one that *is not* quantifiable is shaky, but it is a hypothesis nevertheless.

You jest, so be prepared to face the consequences. To form a testable hypothesis, the hypothesis will require data, in which an Earth model has been presented for cross-comparison with Mars; that's right! We can utilize existing data to form hypothecations about extraterrestrial world(s), and this is especially true in the case of Mars, because Mars is Earth-like. GET MY DRIFT? Where is your testable hypothesis that refutes, or unsubstantiated the POSTERS?

Tell, "... The ability to reason out a hypothesis using the scientific method and accepted scientific means. Causal relationships and shape "looks like" doesn't cut it. ... ", to a 14-year old who expresses his or her ideas in the form of hypothesis, and see how long *YOU* last.

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 01:50 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: CalliArcale][link to this post]  

And you refuse to give any credence whatsoever to the validity and merit of the investigation.

How many questions have I asked that have gone unanswered.

Some things better left alone, Calli?

Show me exactly what it is you think I eyeballed. I gave you specific instructions on how to repeat my work. http://uplink.space.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=phenomena&Number=439227&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1

Get busy. Science is work. So far, you've done zero work. The real phenomena here is that you think you have.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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CalliArcaleModerator
Time Lady
02/16/06 02:05 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

In reply to:

Show me exactly what it is you think I eyeballed.




The placement of the lines.

Here's what you said in the post you linked:

In reply to:

There are several ways to find N/S/E/W. I talk briefly about those ways somewhere on my December Gallery page. The most accurate and reliable way, however, is to use the RCH/Torun model. Those anchor points being the sightline through the 'city square' and 'through the eyes' of the FOM, or more accurately, tangent to the right side of the 'teardrop'.




Finding north, south, east, and west are easy. These are defined values. You don't need to draw lines between features on Mars to do it either; they have absolute values in relationship to the planet Mars. Like the technique for measuring the angles between these lines, that doesn't worry me. I'm quite confident in the ability of anyone on this forum to find these values, just as I am quite confident in the ability of anyone on this forum to measure the angle of two intersecting lines.

But "through the city square" and "through the eyes of the FOM" is not very accurate. These are quite large structures; even a small variation in where one chooses to place the line is going to have a pretty significant affect on its orientation, and consequently on the resulting angle. What is the correct place within the "eye" to draw the line, for instance?

More to the point, why is the eye? Why not the nose or mouth? How do you know it's the right place for drawing this line, or has this point been chosen purely because it's close to where you'd have to put a point for drawing the 60 degree angle you want to find?

Do you see where I'm going with this? It's looking an awful lot like you've chosen to place these lines where they are not because they are in the right places but because they produce the result you want.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh
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TheShadowModerator
The Shadow Knows
02/16/06 02:18 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

max claims: By definition, my thread belongs in SS&A.

By your definition perhaps. However, you will notice that the majority of posters here disagree with that. More importantly, those of us charged with running the forums disagree. We can’t have a separate forum for each possible category, so some threads may not fit exactly into any of the existing forums. Personally, I’d like to see a Pseudo-Science Forum and a Gibberish Forum. Even we can’t have everything the way we want it.

It takes more than just scientific method to make a scientific post, it takes science. Applying the scientific method to mind reading does not legitimize mind reading as a science.

Even threads that start out as legitimate science may be moved to Phenomenon Forum if they quickly degenerate into nonsense.

One more thing. You appear to be attempting to explain the unexplained. Does that phrase sound familiar?


Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men, the Shadow knows.

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 02:33 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: TheShadow][link to this post]  

No, the definition posted by Yevaud and someone else.... I think it was Harmonicaman....

I hate to break the news to you, Shadow, but science is about explaining the unexplained.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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jatslo
solar system
02/16/06 02:34 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: CalliArcale][link to this post]  

CalliArcale said, "I have explained, but obviously not in a way that worked for you. So I'll try again. With all do respect to you Calli, since you have earned my respect time and time again, I would like to express some concerns related to your response. You have eloquently explained you position, and I admire your commitment; however, where in the Space.com code of conduct can I archive this data? I see no evidence other than your personal preferences in this case, and that is why I am asking you.

" ... To belong in one of the science fora, a thread has to be willing to acknowledge scientific principles. You can certainly start with "it looks like thus-and-such" and a bunch of line drawings, but you have to be willing to go beyond that at some point. You also have to be willing to acknowledge the weaknesses of your arguments and methods. ..."

Wow! You have some of the most interesting ideas; however, I since a double standard that is politically motivated. Why would you expect and hold this individual to specific criteria's and not do the same across the board. For example, just recently you told someone that they can post E.T. related information in a science forum, and told the other to post in a E.T. forum, and that sounds in large part, to me anyway, that you are guilty of discrimination, which is usually politically motivated and often dishonest. Please correct me, if I misinterpreted your meaning, for I am your humble servant.

"... You refuse to go beyond your line drawings. You refuse to acknowledge the arbitrary nature of the lines you've laid down. You evidently think that "experimental error" applies only to the measurement of angles between these arbitrary lines, and not to the lines themselves. You make tantalizing allusions to some incontrovertible outside proof but refuse to actually provide any hints as to what that proof is, to say nothing of the proof itself. When challenged on any of these points, you either ignore the challenges, respond with misdirection, or become hostile. You certainly are not willing to acknowledge any genuine weaknesses in your methods. ..."

Excuse me, but did it ever occur to you that taking this *Hypothesis* to the next level is virtually impossible to achieve when so many counter productive skeptics are in the room? ... and yet again, you expect so much from this talented individual, but you ignore and allow the others too do exactly what you are preaching here. That sounds politically motivated, so please honestly correct me if I am wrong. In addition, you are claiming that there is error without providing evidence to the contrary, which constitutes the very same thing that you are defending. That is contradictive. Besides, testable hypothecations always have standard deviations, errors, levels of confidence etcetera, so the fact that there is error, if you are right, only provides evidence that the hypothesis in question is, in fact, testable to some degree of confidence.

"... In scientific terms, this means you are biased greatly in favor of yourself being right. You will not even entertain the possibility that there might be a truth other than yours. What makes this most irritating is that you accuse everyone who dares disagree with you of being biased and closed to the alternatives. Yet you yourself will not even entertain alternatives. The real process of science does not interest you; you are merely interested in promoting what you have already decided to be the truth, not in searching for truth. ..."

Biased? Maxtheknife is one of the most opened minded individuals that I have met on the Space.com boards in the two-years that I have been posting here. A testable hypothesis is baseless when it is rejected scientifically. This generally means that an existing model is validated in the cross comparison that is statistical probability in science. Where is your model, so that I may compare?

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 02:34 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: CalliArcale][link to this post]  

Uh, Calli... that mosaic isn't registered for N/S/E/W.

How did I find those lines? Measuring. Something that is a known and critical tool in science.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 02:39 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: jatslo][link to this post]  

Jatslo: Where is your model, so that I may compare?

I think Yevaud is going to provide some measurments of the furniture in his living room.


The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/16/06 02:41 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Comment of which thereby proving someone hasn't quite gotten it yet.

Brutal

Dave Lister

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 02:46 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Yevaud, if that's your contention... Prove it!

To not do so, by definition, would be pseudoscientific.

Show me.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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CalliArcaleModerator
Time Lady
02/16/06 02:49 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: jatslo][link to this post]  

In reply to:

Why would you expect and hold this individual to specific criteria's and not do the same across the board. For example, just recently you told someone that they can post E.T. related information in a science forum, and told the other to post in a E.T. forum




I think you have misunderstood me.

Non-scientific discussion generally goes here, in Phenomena. (Free Space is okay too; everything's topical there.)

ET-related information, if it is scientific, goes in SETI. If it not scientific, it goes here.

In reply to:

Excuse me, but did it ever occur to you that taking this *Hypothesis* to the next level is virtually impossible to achieve when so many counter productive skeptics are in the room?




You might be surprised if you actually try. The "skeptics", as you call them, are actually attempting to take it to the next level -- analyzing the merits of the argument. Frankly, I don't see why a person would be averse to that unless they were either close-minded or making it up.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh
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Yevaud
galaxy
02/16/06 02:50 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Several of us already have, Max.

Stop cherry-picking relationships that conveniently fall into "useful" patterns, making overmuch of angles (which occur throughout nature), and basing it all on chance and superficial surface topographical patterns.

That's not science, Max, that's seeing the shape of a Cow in a cloud-formation...

Brutal

Dave Lister

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TheShadowModerator
The Shadow Knows
02/16/06 02:52 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

max claims: No, the definition posted by Yevaud and someone else.

And therein lies one of your problems. You ignore the other points I made, and then falsely attribute your inaccurate take on the definition to someone else.

In any case, if you think you are explaining the unexplained, then by definition, you are in the correct forum.

Phenomenon
Explain the Unexplained


Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men, the Shadow knows.

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CalliArcaleModerator
Time Lady
02/16/06 02:54 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

In reply to:

Uh, Calli... that mosaic isn't registered for N/S/E/W.




If N/S/E/W isn't important, why did you describe it as part of your method?

In reply to:

How did I find those lines? Measuring. Something that is a known and critical tool in science.




Yes, I understand you are measuring. But measuring what? Why is it correct to place the line through the FOM's eye, and not its mouth, for instance?

What can you tell me to show that the placement of the lines is not in fact completely arbitrary and therefore meaningless?

-------------------------------------------------------------
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh
-------------------------------------------------------------

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 02:56 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Link please.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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jatslo
solar system
02/16/06 03:03 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: TheShadow][link to this post]  

TheShadow said, "... By your definition perhaps. However, you will notice that the majority of posters here disagree with that. More importantly, those of us charged with running the forums disagree. We can’t have a separate forum for each possible category, so some threads may not fit exactly into any of the existing forums. Personally, I’d like to see a Pseudo-Science Forum and a Gibberish Forum. Even we can’t have everything the way we want it.

That pretty much confirms my suspicions. This is political! "... By your definition perhaps ..." ; I thought that Maxtheknife was referring to Calli's interpretation of personal preferences that you obviously are supporting, which is not surprising.

"... It takes more than just scientific method to make a scientific post, it takes science. Applying the scientific method to mind reading does not legitimize mind reading as a science. Even threads that start out as legitimate science may be moved to Phenomenon Forum if they quickly degenerate into nonsense. ..."

Why? Your actions are politically motivated, and you have said it in the post that I am responding to. What is the count, are you sure you are voicing a majority vote. Surveying people is a great way to promote equality scientifically.

Coming from someone who does not believe that space is a medium conduit. If you are so scientifically inept, then do us all a favor and teach us what a testable hypothesis is ... Oh, that is right. You possess the gibberish filter of your own design; yet, you lack the skills to guide those very ideals that you so eloquently defend.

Do us all a favor and but a book about hypothesis.

"... One more thing. You appear to be attempting to explain the unexplained. Does that phrase sound familiar? ..."

Excuse me for butting heads, but that is science, so does that sound familiar to you? Take string theory for instance, string theory is un-testable, and philosophical at best, yet, String Theory is held with such regard that one could almost be fooled into thinking that it is a testable hypothecation, when the majority thinks otherwise.

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/16/06 03:09 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

"Link Please???!!!"

Go do your own homework, Max. You should have been paying attention during previous posts in this thread. Apparently you were not.

However: here's an instructive on what, precisely, we're all getting at:

1. The FOM is significant.

How? Because it superficially resembles a face? Even that has been shown to be wrong, as Image analysis of the FOM from different angles and perspectives shows it most certainly does NOT resemble a face. Only from certain perspectives. If chance weathering can produce all manners of odd shapes on Earth, why is it suddenly not possible on Mars? You make no sense here.

2. The Odd-shaped mountain is significant.

How? Because it has an odd shape?

3. The relationship of A to B is significant (and by definition, B to C, C to D, etc.).

Well, if you get to select A and then B from a smorgasbord of choices, and select each for specifics, such as angle, distance, and relationship, of *course* you're going to find interesting patterns. Hence my "household furniture" analogy (and proving you barely read *that*, it was three objects on my desk, not "furniture."). I can find patterns everywhere in nature. That doesn't mean that they signify squat.

And so on.

And that's the "science" you've been using. You've "decided" the FOM is artificial, in light of no evidence or proof whatsoever. You then take a nearby mountain, and declare that it's shape means something! And then begin to relate one to the other to other nearby objects, slowly building up a fantasy world.

Brutal

Dave Lister

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 03:13 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: CalliArcale][link to this post]  

N/S/E/W is important. Finding it using anomalous landforms infers artificiality

Measuring what, did you ask? I know you were around for all those other threads. How can you possibly ask such a question?

Do it the way I did it and you too can find accurate n/s/e/w lines. It's the only way the model fits. That's why they aren't meaningless. Tangent to the teardrop and 'through' the city square are.... intentional sight lines. Any other way, and the model doesn't work. That, in and of itself, ought to tell you something about them being arbitrary.... meaning they aren't

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 03:15 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

No... show me the link. I remember pretty much everything that's been posted over the past year. I remember no such posts.

How do you think I remembered you work in a VA hospital?

If you say they're there... show me. I contend they aren't there.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/16/06 03:18 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

How so you think I remembered you work in a VA hospital?

Good example. I do not, nor ever have, worked for the VA. I am an Operations Supervisor at Boston's Veteran's Shelter.

As to the presence of past posts, do you recollect numerous posts as to the Scientific Method, what it entails, and where you have failed to use it? You already stated that you do recollect them.

Brutal

Dave Lister

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 03:19 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

Whatever, same thing. Doesn't VA mean Veteran?

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

Edited by Maxtheknife (02/16/06 03:20 PM)

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/16/06 03:20 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Not even remotely close.

Brutal

Dave Lister

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bonzelite
star
02/16/06 03:22 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: CalliArcale][link to this post]  

You refuse to acknowledge the arbitrary nature of the lines you've laid down.

the lines i drew were not arbitrary, but geometrically symmetrical. the pyramid form is a symmetrical arrowhead shape. a complex one as well.

is this evidence fully for ET? no. is it scientifically worthy of investigation based upon morphology? YES. in fact, because it is an anomaly, and symmetrical, it should be given 100% attention and priority scientifically. to ignore it is stupid.

in-n-out burger

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 03:23 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

So,,, you gonna show me the link that doesn't exist?

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/16/06 03:26 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Seeking some sort of Moral victory based on your own personal laziness, Max? Go do your own legwork. If you can't even remember the content from this singular thread, far be it for me to do your work for you.

Brutal

Dave Lister

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 03:33 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Yevaud][link to this post]  

For the record, when ZenonMars said you worked with Vietnam Vets, sick ones at that, it's a safe assumption that it's some kind of hospital.

Remember that thread, Yevaud. Back when you were almost civil?

click here

(Edited to shorten the link. It still goes to the same place.)

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

Edited by CalliArcale (02/16/06 04:05 PM)

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 03:34 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Back on topic please.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 03:35 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

I believe someone around here was going to offer up some evidence that Cydonia's landform's relationships are indeed 'casual'.

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK

Edited by Maxtheknife (02/16/06 03:41 PM)

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CalliArcaleModerator
Time Lady
02/16/06 04:04 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

In reply to:

the lines i drew were not arbitrary, but geometrically symmetrical.




I feel a lot more confident about your lines than Max's, although of course there's still the question of how close they are to the "actual" edges of the structure. Erosion being what it is, the edges that are present today are likely not the edges that were there a long time ago, so finding edges does involve a certain amount of guesswork. This is a fundamental weakness of the method. When archeologists do the same thing, they have to wrestle with that all the time. It just goes with the territory. Still, I think what you've done is a lot more scientific than what Max has done.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh
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CalliArcaleModerator
Time Lady
02/16/06 04:14 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

In reply to:

N/S/E/W is important. Finding it using anomalous landforms infers artificiality




Not neccesarily. The cardinal points affect a great deal in nature, such as wind patterns, which will in turn affect landforms, both natural and otherwise.

I'm a bit confused, though. You described how to "find" N/S/E/W, then said the image didn't show N/S/E/W. It almost sounds like you're suggesting that the cardinal points are defined by the Cydonian features, not the rotational axis of Mars. But that doesn't make sense, so I don't think I've understood you correctly.

In reply to:

Measuring what, did you ask? I know you were around for all those other threads. How can you possibly ask such a question?




Because you haven't answered what I'm really getting at. Obivously I've not worded the question very well.

In reply to:

Do it the way I did it and you too can find accurate n/s/e/w lines. It's the only way the model fits. That's why they aren't meaningless. Tangent to the teardrop and 'through' the city square are.... intentional sight lines. Any other way, and the model doesn't work. That, in and of itself, ought to tell you something about them being arbitrary.... meaning they aren'




On the contrary, Max, that says they ARE arbitrary -- they are meaningful soley because they fit your pattern. You picked them not because they're important, but because they fit your pattern. Meanwhile, you have discarded any other possibly meaningful points purely because they don't fit your pattern. Do you still not see why so many people have a problem with that?

In science you can't pick something just because it supports your theory and ignore things that don't. You have to account for the things that don't fit. You can get a completely different configuration of lines by using other features in Cydonia. How do you account for that?

-------------------------------------------------------------
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh
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jatslo
solar system
02/16/06 04:24 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

Well he better do that math, or he is forever stuck in phenomena.

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Maxtheknife
star
02/16/06 04:37 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: CalliArcale][link to this post]  

Yes, necessarily, Calli. It's a Sphinx... several times over. It is a measurable fact. Redundant and unambiguous.

The question of AOC is answered, the question of what it means is before you.

Do you choose to rise to the challenge of that question and all its implications or do you choose to believe that some things are better left alone?

That is where I am. I think you know what I've chosen to do.

"A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -JFK



The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were. -JFK


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ag30476
rock
02/16/06 05:02 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

> I believe someone around here was going to offer up
> some evidence that Cydonia's landform's
> relationships are indeed 'casual'.

Wasn't me but check out...
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/hoagland/city.html#numbers
http://www.math.washington.edu/~greenber/Telephone.html

Cydonia, Giza, The Da Vinci Code...I blame that Pythagoras guy. He started all this.

BTW Max, your Sphinx is your best work yet. Put it on a t-shirt and sell it. Seriously.

Edited by ag30476 (02/16/06 05:05 PM)

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CalliArcaleModerator
Time Lady
02/16/06 05:07 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: Maxtheknife][link to this post]  

In reply to:

Yes, necessarily, Calli. It's a Sphinx... several times over. It is a measurable fact.




Measureable how? It doesn't even look like a Sphinx.

You didn't even attempt to answer the main thrust of my post above. It's my main problem with your methods, and why I do not consider your methods to be scientific. You are assuming a particular outcome, choosing data which supports it, and discarding everything else. That is the complete opposite of science.

If you still do not understand why this thread is in Phenomena, then I'm afraid you have very little hope of discussing this topic in one of the science forums.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh
-------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by CalliArcale (02/16/06 05:07 PM)

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bonzelite
star
02/16/06 05:41 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: CalliArcale][link to this post]  

calli, yes, erosion over millions of years will diminish perfectly straight lines. tis true. and what does remain is remarkable, if not miraculous, at Cydonia. thank you for acknowleding my claims.

in-n-out burger

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Yevaud
galaxy
02/16/06 06:02 PM
Re: Geometry & Symmetry elsewhere on Mars new [re: bonzelite][link to this post]  

Straight Lines formed in nature:

Soza Mesa, California

Zion National Park

Say, that verge at the edge of the lake looks awfully straight

Damn, flat too. Guess it must be artificial

Wow - look at those straight lines

Almost straight as a razor

Flat terrain, Salford England

No. Nature NEVER creates straight lines after Billions of years...

Brutal

Dave Lister

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bobw
planet
02/16/06 06:06 PM